Reason 8 - Official

[stroker_ace]

First to Korg.. if predator can provide it's FX section so could have Korg.. they were just too lazy to program it within the RE SDK gui limitations..

Yeah, those lazy Japanese......always cuttin' corners.

And I guess they haven't released another rack extension since (June, 2013) out of that same laziness?!?

Secondly, Gforce's mistake was releasing an $100 mellotron Re as their first. No offence but who cares. There are countless soundfonts of good quality, and refills that coast a third of the price that have enough mellotron for anyone.

Yes, it wasn't the obvious money-making choice.

And I guess you're suggesting that this mistake, and the lack of sales that resulted from it, is the reason why they've back-burnered their second rack extension, even though they were seemingly really close to releasing it?!?

Thirdly, U-HE's mistake was releasing buggy plugins that eat DSP for breakfast, and all with latency. So if his sales aren't good, it doesn't matter how cheap they are. I have also seen many comment , including myself, that they refuse to buy them because they are more than the VST for less (bugs and 10 - 20x the cpu usage). His mistake.

Yet there's still a lot of clamoring for the Satin rack extension......which they can't stop from crashing, apparently......as well as their synths in rack extension format.

Chris Randall released one of their weakest plugins as the first.. again, his mistake.. not that he is some sort of coding genius anyway, and he certainly doesn't keep his 30 day refund policy or answer emails. His AU's were bug ridden for many years with ignored repeated support requests. He is not anyone whose opinion means anything to me.

You've clearly got an axe to grind with the man. Yes, Rough Rider was a stupid first choice, but I love BigSeq2, and I think more AD plug-ins would have been a most welcome addition to the rack extension shop.

You're trying to lay 100% of the blame for these shortcomings/failures at the feet of the developers, but I think a lot of these "mistakes" were, more than anything, down to SDK limitations (see: the Sugar Bytes fiasco).

If you're trying to launch a new plug-in format, I think you need to go out of your way to teach and support third-party devs, and nurture relationships.

We obviously don't know if Props' has done this, or to what degree they have, but there have certainly been several rumblings to the contrary.

Softube and synapse have some of the most expensive products on the store (with antidote and tsar) and yet keep on releasing.. softube are porting their tube tech next.. a $489 channel strip.. Rob Papen is making an RE exclusive synth even that is coming in a few weeks... The developers that release the right stuff that is bug free are doing well and want to continue to support the platform.

You've named the three threads rack extensions are hanging by.

Let's see if they hold.

And why didn't you mention latency with Softube's rack extensions?

" - In 44.1 khz, all softube due to oversample - there is also a bug with the softube that they don't bypass their latency when the plugin is bypassed. therefore the easiest way to mix with them is just insert "bypassed" versions on parallel channels where the latency causes issue."

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[BMoore]

Quotes from this thread:
"If only the PHeads didn't force, even non-Reason owners, to buy REs!"
"They should at least implement some sort of arrangement to demo REs!"
"And I swear, by the power of grayscull, that my neighbours dog died when PHeads announced R8."

The user base is huge. So provide the REs the users wants, and it's a no-brainer for those devs.
Zebra, Massive, Sylenth, Nexus, Omnisphere, Sugar Bytes effects, Izotope, Alchemy, would sell thousands.

[EnochLight]

Obligatory:

[jsp1979]

With regard to RE's, you have to admit, "PH has put out a poor concept" sounds a lot more likely than "All 5 of these talented companies (u-he, Korg, Audio Damage, GForce, etc) don't know what they're doing".

Occam's Razor and all that.

If you introduce a new paradigm, it's up to you to convince others to be on board by demonstrating why it would be to their advantage. It doesn't seem like PH has made a convincing case to most of the bigger developers.

From developers, most complaints about RE's seem to point out it's limitations and the fact that PH wants to be the one to be in charge of certain aspects. I suspect many developers would rather just avoid it altogether than to put out a "compromised" product (in their eyes).

[eXode]

Quotes from this thread:
"If only the PHeads didn't force, even non-Reason owners, to buy REs!"
"They should at least implement some sort of arrangement to demo REs!"
"And I swear, by the power of grayscull, that my neighbours dog died when PHeads announced R8."

The user base is huge. So provide the REs the users wants, and it's a no-brainer for those devs.
Zebra, Massive, Sylenth, Nexus, Omnisphere, Sugar Bytes effects, Izotope, Alchemy, would sell thousands.

You forgot the most important quote:
"propellerhead stole my virginity, and left me on my own to support our love child"

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[fese]

Obligatory:

http://nympheas.org/p/your_studio.jpg

As it seems, I am using the wrong DAW. I don't resemble any of the Cubase guys, if at all the left Protools guy. Guess i need to switch...expect some VST sales in the market place soon

[Flandersh]

Obligatory:

http://nympheas.org/p/your_studio.jpg

As it seems, I am using the wrong DAW. I don't resemble any of the Cubase guys, if at all the left Protools guy. Guess i need to switch...expect some VST sales in the market place soon

A combination of Protools, Cakewalk, Studio One, FL Studio and Reaper would then be me. I have never been comfortable with Protools, and my Cakewalk Sonar edition was so buggy that I seldom was able to start it, but Studio One, FL Studio and Reaper works bugfree here.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[trimph1]

It's not, but peeing in the ocean to raise the tide isn't smart either.

True.
It is a very weird model to work with but to actually break the habit? Oi...

[trimph1]

Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, as if they haven't even read the post they are responding to. I see you have ignored being called out on that TWICE.

"called out" by who?!? A Reason fan-boy who couldn't keep up with the conversation (he claimed it was about future-proofing, and I capped that argument in the knees by saying there may not be a future to proof! notice he didn't actually go near any of my points, because he would have looked like an even bigger fool), and a guy who can't even quote properly?!?

If you want to play the numbers game, Stalin, you made a statement so dumb that TWO people thought you were being sarcastic.

I've addressed the issues raised and tried to broadened the discussion. It's not on me if you guys can't keep up, or don't want to face the truth.

Anyway let's push on. Please read the words that are written if you plan on debating further.

full disclosure: I'm not really interested in debating you so much as making you look like a fool to the other people reading this.

fuller disclosure: you're doing half the job for me.

Perhaps 'mandatory' was not the most ideal word to use, but the closed loop is effectively a 'lock in' for most people who have no interest in working in a multi-DAW environment. If the single-DAW users, who in their right mind would retire using Reason if they have invested in RE's? Perhaps you're assuming this to be from the point of disgruntled users... it's not. The statement is based on the profitability model.

1. I think you completely underestimate the number of people who use more than one DAW. Even most Reason-zombies seem to have at least one other DAW. Go ahead and ask them......if you dare!

2. Call me nutty then, because I left Reason after dumping about 700-800 euros into rack extensions. Regrettable, but since I have a job, it's not the end of the world.

I'll cash out if rack extension licenses become transferable. If not, I can always use ReWire if I get a hankering to use Reason devices, or actually use Reason itself, and just export .wav files into Studio One.

Or I could just not use it again.

If you go 5 miles up the wrong road, most people, myself included, would think going 5 miles further up it would be insane, rather than admitting your mistake, turning around, and finding the right road for your journey.

And you're not taking into account how cheap, easy, and basically no-risk it is to get into another DAW. I bought Studio One Professional for $129, I think. And since then I've bought maybe $1,500-$2,000 worth of VST instruments and effects.

I could get at least 75% of that money back tomorrow, and it would probably be closer to 100%, because I bought everything on sale/secondhand, and almost everything is transferable.

So why wouldn't anybody (with a job) jump if they felt "trapped" or "locked in" by Reason and their Draconian business model?!?

I don't know what world you're living in, but everybody who makes music isn't a poverty-stricken lemming-idiot.

A person who owns a DAW is most likely to want plugins.

A person who owns Reason is obliged to satisfy that need/want with Rack Extensions

With MIDI out came the ability to use standalone instruments and effects with Reason. I was using Addictive Drums, Chromaphone, the NI instruments, Guitar Rig, and Amplitube with Reason before I made the jump. Since I'm on a PC, it took a second sound card, but it worked perfectly for me.

If you'd like to split hairs, and I'm sure you'd like to, no, those aren't technically plug-ins, as they don't work IN Reason, but WITH it, which was workable for me.

And it was a really nice "bridge" to make the leap from, actually, as I was still using Reason, but I had stopped buying rack extensions for at least my last six months of using it, and was buying VSTs.

But the pull of VSTs that couldn't also operate in standalone mode became too strong.

So I dumped Reason once and for all, and I haven't put a penny into it since.

The joy of using VST instruments and effects far outweigh any regret I have over spending 700-800 euros on rack extensions.

A person who has invested hundreds, perhaps thousands into that system (a system by which RE's are not resellable) is unlikely to abandon the software. What does she/he do ? Stick with their DAW of choice, and inevitably keep buying RE's that interest them. For Propellerhead, it is the gift that keeps on giving.

I heard you the first time.

You also make assumption of the entire RE range, and it's success, based on U-He's 2%. Why ? I have absolutely no interest in the U-He range. There's no 'gold standard' by which each user is adhering to.

I never said they were any kind of "gold standard"; I said they were low-cost, high-quality effects, which they are. And it was slim pickins in the early days of the rack extension shop; the Uhbiks were definitely a welcome sight for most.

And there have been several indicators from several different third parties that rack extensions are not doing well.

For me, I am of the mind that creativity can be unleashed with the onboard stock devices and patches... but you know what? Almost without being aware of the number until I checked a minute ago, I have EIGHT 3rd party RE's. There's another few on my 'want' list that immediately spring to mind, and probably another five if I thought about it some more. And I'm not even one of those 'collectors' who feel they need as many tools as possible... yet within 6 months I will probably have amassed more that 15 Rack Extensions.

Why would I drop my DAW of choice, when I have put money into it, over and above the upgrade price? Props have got me by the balls (metaphorically speaking). Why would those more dedicated users who might have double, triple that amount, walk away?

Again; I heard (and answered) you the first time.

"Oh, my God: I've spent $500 on rack extensions! I'm in their prison-hell forever!!!". What are you, a 12-year-old with a paper route, putting a few quarters in his piggy bank once a week?!? $500 is some sort of earth-shattering amount to you?!?

Do you know the punchline to the old joke "why is divorce so expensive?"?

because it's worth it

For as long as this clever method of customer retention is in place, people will keep spending. And when Props is the only store in town, it's a 100% marketshare.

Yeah, but of a dwindling marketplace, imo. I think more people are wising up and leaving, or they're not buying any more rack extensions, or, at the very least, they're not spending at the rate they did when rack extensions first launched.

Most Reason users are going to say themselves, if they haven't already: "my rack's full! I don't need a 5th reverb or a 6th delay".

And that's when Props will make rack extension licenses transferable, because they'll have to.

Take a look at the gushing excitement at some of the silly toys that have been released lately. Folks (the Reason Zombies) are buying ANYTHING it seems. And Props get their pound of flesh on every single sale for doing little more that providing a platform in which to host these.

That's my two bobs worth. I'm off to buy a Polar licence since I won't be upgrading to v8.

There's gushing, and then there's buying, and if they were buying as much as they were gushing we'd see a lot more 3rd-party devs jumping on the rack extension train, imo.

I know your point is that while 3rd-party devs might not be raking in the cash, Props is, but I disagree.

And if they lose developers.........and it seems like they are.........the amount they are raking in will obviously go down.

Wow!!! So he was serious???

OMGROFL!!!!

The whole " locked in" thing is why I have other DAWS here. So count me as one who does not stick with a single system...

[kmonkey]

Take a look at the gushing excitement at some of the silly toys that have been released lately. Folks (the Reason Zombies) are buying ANYTHING it seems. And Props get their pound of flesh on every single sale for doing little more that providing a platform in which to host these.

.

Dude, i am being completely honest and with no disrespect intended i am going to tell you that your assumptions and point of view is a bit offending and disgusting at the same time.

Not sure where you are making your figures and why are you calling people which use Reason - zombies (i guess you are gonna say now that this is your way of making humor) but may i ask who you are exactly to judge which people are silly or not silly based on toys/plugins they are ordering? Not nice matte, not at all. By that analogy we are already in post apocalyptic world because there are gazillion of shitty VST plugins with even more then gazillion orders placed..So?

Let me give you my point of usage. For example i agree that most of the stuff at Props shop is beyond decent level of creativity, GUI, and usability. I totally agree. I am VST user for more then decade so i can compare in decent way.. And for another example only RE plugs i did order where Predator and Polar (will order Parsec, TSAR and Antidote). I did not even bothered to download plugins which are of no interest for myself - so does fact that i ordered only "pro" plugs make me less Reason zombie or?

And i am not defending anyone here but i think you are crossing lines of normal conversation. Honestly..It's no different to marking people and ridiculing them for their choice of music or something other...

[Mr. Fister]

Nobody's "losing their invested dollars", and there's no "mandatory retention" going on. I've given up on Reason, but I can still use it, and all the rack extensions I bought.

Nothing is stopping anybody from simply walking away, and many have.

It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, as if they haven't even read the post they are responding to. I see you have ignored being called out on that TWICE.

"called out" by who?!? A Reason fan-boy who couldn't keep up with the conversation (he claimed it was about future-proofing, and I capped that argument in the knees by saying there may not be a future to proof! notice he didn't actually go near any of my points, because he would have looked like an even bigger fool), and a guy who can't even quote properly?!?

Fanboy? Yeah I'm a fanboy, but that doesn't mean that I don't question propellerheads, or agree with everything they do. However when I question them, or leave feedback, I do it in a forum where I know they will listen and not in some random thread on KVR.

It is not I who couldn't keep up with the conversation. I had a conversation with another user which got interrupted by completely irrelevant posts (which you continue to make). You didn't "cap" any argument in the knees, as you don't seem to have the mental capacity to grasp what we are talking about, hence my uninterest in discussing the matter with you any further.

It is not I who make up stories about propellerheads economy, their developer base, or their user base...

No, you're not giving yourself enough credit. Let me stop you. Listen to this:

You made a few Refills for Reason and have a huge ego about it....for one thing. The next thing, you display just how inexperienced in the rest of the audio world you are whenever you, well, basically whenever you post.

I watched you argue with a VST developer last month when he detailed all the reasons he didnt want to involve HIS business with Propellerheads. You did NOT accept his own reasons and tried to tell him he was wrong for conducting HIS OWN business in that way. That was when I reached my very end with you. You display the typical Reason-zombie mindset with the complete lack of other experience to anything else going on in the audio world. There's a handful of you guys, and people can see your ego's coming from around the corner.

"It's difficult to have a discussion with someone who replies with irrelevant comments, " ~ Do you have ANY idea what it's like having conversations with people like you who really don't know much about other DAWs but hang out in audio forums like they think they do?

[trimph1]

I think we need to narrow down just who we are talking about here. It is getting confusing...

BTW..I do know. But not everyone does.