morals and money

[1-2-Many]

Ah yes - the "Illusion of Control"

[Rick1114]

Good posts all, and great thread. I'm an agnostic, since I think it's arrogant to proclaim knowledge (either way) of the unknowable. Although, I do hope for a god which seems like a more favorable scenario - but of course it does since we're the ones who've defined god....

That is not to dismiss our capacity for good/evil which is hard-wired into universal make-up (good/evil, ying/yang, can't have one without the other), but our ability to be intouch with both, and prefer the good, is natural in humanity, when we our in touch with our true selves.

Liked your sentiments, warm n cozy. My take - there is no objective universal good or evil, it's all relative. And although I'm glad (being human) that humans have their relative morals regarding what's best for humans, Morality ONLY exists in the minds of humans because we mistakenly THINK that there is an absolute system of good and evil and proceed to interpret everything within our experience with a humanistic bent.

A close inspection of the natural world (other life) will reveal that it is basically without morals. If it can happen it will happen "Moral" or not, and those that make the best use of resources survive, those that don't fail, and best doesn't necessarily mean most!

I wholly agree with an earlier post that stated it's easy to get too tangled in the moral questions - in the end you have to do what allows you to stay happy in your own head, sometimes that might mean rethinking or relaxing your view a bit.

I personally would've taken the job, even though I don't like the concept of what they're doing. But that's only because I believe resistance is futile. The human race is a locomotive careening down the tracks with no brakes and the tracks are running out - for personal sanity you have to ignore that fact and just sit back in the passenger car and enjoy the ride, the company, and the view out your window (and quietly, without upsetting your fellow passengers, hope for a miracle).

Sorry if this came out too 'warm and cozy', maybe it's tainted by my current disposition since it was a warm, summer day here in NY. Anyway, I was wrong in saying humans 'prefer' good over evil, but it's more a question of human dignity. I do agree there is no absolute system of good and evil (besides that to have one you need the other) and that morality IS a human construct. But why humans created morality or even art or music (they are all more noble human constructs), is a mystery I would say. But if you consider human morality (preferring the good) something like a work of art or music (human construct that does nothing for the survival instinct), then it's something that brings beauty and dignity to the human life and that's reason enough - just as it reason enough to compose music.

BTW - I would've take the job too, but I guessing Vurt's life more of a work of art than mine.

[VitaminD]

Surely the moral dilemma is in being able to live with his concience rather than going against his own personal beliefs?

I'd say being able to sleep at nights, but in vurts case...

***

I don't understand why people seem to think we should all think the same.

NO ONE has answered the question though.. only skirted around it by saying good for you going with your concious or with your morals, then people saying 'my thoughts exactly' or 'good job'??? but what moral or thought is being broken by making this song? what is the 'bad' in this situation?? what are the beliefs that oppose one making a song for this firm?

[vurt]

i do not want to be associated in any way with anything that destroys more of my countrys natural beauty
yes it may well go ahead without me,but when it does how can i climb trees and protest when i have written the track?

[vurt]

lets call it a conflict of interests rather than anything moralistic then,now do you understand

[VitaminD]

you're missing the fact that I dont live there and understand truely what this 'green belt' thing is.. the website said it had little to nothing to do with conservation and that the 'green belt' term had been around before 'green' took a conservation tone to the word..

so you'll have to start from square one (please) and explain what it is.. I'd rather like to know... if you're willing to explain it.

[vurt]

well forget what the website says about greenbelt
by greenbelt i mean anywhere that still has any natural beauty left
in the uk there are thousands of acres of disused industrial land,so why ruin more natural bits?

its not progress is it really,progress would be recycling the land already left to abandonment?

i just see it as destruction is that not simple enough?

[VitaminD]

hmm okies


but what do you mean by industrial land? like an industrial park?

the only industrial land im familiar with are the many industrial parks on once-farm fields...

..and who wants to relax in an industrial park?

suntanning by the semitrucks and cooling off in the pool by the plastic factory's smoke stacks??

It makes sense to me that they'd want to put something meant to relax people in a calm part of the country... but too many people cause too many problems eh?

[dekky]

whatever choice you made.. if it felt right - it was right.

good thing if you have a choice..
i don't.
due to the fact that i am working at an ad-company doesn't give you many choices.

last year i had to do some work for monsanto ... i had the choice of doing it or leave..
no i will rott in hell i guess

[Omnivox]

........
Again, no personal attacks are in the above text. I just wanted to unpack a few ideas and take a quick look at them. The issue of objective truth is dear to me, and I haven't done it justice in my explanation.

Huh, this is some reading. But I must say i do not really see the point of this post - it looks more like an atheist hunt than something which actually is having a connection with vurt's original post. I consider myself an atheist, as a person who does not really believe in God as defined by catholic church, and this post made me pretty uneasy. Moral and atheism cannot be connected like that, it's like comparing apples and, dunno, bricks. The only difference is basically that you cannot eat bricks, though, some have tried.
I have seen people who swear to God doing some really nasty things in His name, and a lot of atheists whose moral principles were high.
Ok, now this thread went in the wrong way, I am sorry, but I just felt I had to react.

And about vurt - you have your principles and behave accordingly, which deserves Respect (yes, with a capital R). The main thing is that you feel satisfied with yourself, and, as I could see, you do. Maybe you will not change the world, but it is a small step in the right direction.

[vurt]

whatever choice you made.. if it felt right - it was right.

good thing if you have a choice..
i don't.
due to the fact that i am working at an ad-company doesn't give you many choices.

last year i had to do some work for monsanto ... i had the choice of doing it or leave..
no i will rott in hell i guess

nah mate you wont rot in hell,its like i said i dont depend on this to feed my family if i did im sure the end result would be different
i am however glad i did have the choice in this instant tho

[CypherOne]

can't be arsed to read the entire thread, but vurt, do what you feel is best.

personally I would do the track if it had benefit to my family and had no bearing on whether the land is used or not. right now it's lose lose, the land gets used and you don't get any cash.

but, hats off to you for having the courage of your convictions, I expect many of us (myself included) wouldn't have even bothered to check out the organisation and it's plans once the pound signs appeared in our eyes.

but then I'm shallow like that

[Bl1tz]

Vurt do it! I know it goes against what you believe but they're gonna build it whether you send a tune or not =)

Make some cash!! I'd kill for any job that paid me money to make music.

[wonshu]

speak through your music - i don't care where they put my music under as long as it gets heared.
As we all know Hilter was inspired by Wagner and played it during or before ceremony's
the fact Hitler was a raving lunatic on a murdering rampage doesn't make the music of Wagner bad.

Well, but the fact that Wagner himself was quite a big anti-semite (spelling?) and the fact that Wagner always had these germanic heroic themes for his operas explains Hitlers adoration for Wagner.

And thus:
Even though Wagner is an important composer and a great artistic talent, the fact that his political views are totally out of whack make me not want to listen to his music esp. if it has lyrics in it....

So, be careful as to what art is used for in this world as we always communicate ideas, wether they're clearly stated (as in a philosophical essay) or represented by a persons attitude or inderictly associated with views and actions one might not want to stand for.

Cheers and enjoy
wonshu

PS: vurt, I've done work for environmental groups and felt bad about getting paid for it... but then again I have to live, I guess this is the ideal situation... at least for me!

[uncadave]

this is a really long thread and i've scrolled thru to get the jist, but haven't read all the comments and replies.

the question is morals vs money, tho. would you write an 18 minute backing piece for a porno flick?
i'm really interested in the answer to this question