KVR Audio

knockman · Post by **knockman** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:35 am

this is my first request for feedback at K-v-R. i've sailed around the forum lately and get the notion you people have sound taste and opinion.

Gala Mae

this track is a sample of my recent output. i work in isolation so would appreciate criticism either way
regards

vurt · Post by **vurt** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:50 am

ooh i like this

dekky · Post by **dekky** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:02 pm

me like the lalala-part and the flute a lot.

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:13 pm

i like the composition ...

the mix is another matter ...
it needs quite a bit of work ...
the individual elements are not well balanced ...
concentrate on panning , eq , compression
and dynamics ...

knockman · Post by **knockman** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:50 pm

thanks for the promptness people:)

normal wrote: it needs quite a bit of work ...
the individual elements are not well balanced ...
concentrate on panning , eq , compression
and dynamics ...

this is my fear! where to start? i was a live musician for years but the studio is another world it seems. i can easily lose sight of the whole while fiddling about with one aspect. thanks, i've got things to think about

regards

mr.me · Post by **mr.me** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:20 pm

Great song, nice feel to it.

experimental.crow · Post by **experimental.crow** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:45 pm

it would be a bit easier to offer further
suggestions if we knew a bit more about your set-up ...

Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:52 pm

That's an excellent track. That laa laa la chorus is truly brilliant.

I'm very intrested in hearing a better mix of this.

mayeb you should let one of the guys here take a shot at remixing it for you.

Don't ask me, I suck worse than anyone

knockman · Post by **knockman** » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:15 pm

thanks everyone for the positive comments.

as a novice in the mixing and mastering fields it's very encouraging to get attention.

it would be a bit easier to offer further
suggestions if we knew a bit more about your set-up ...

i recorded this track in sonar on a self built p4 pc, xp os, terratec soundcard. the guitar went in via a korg ampworks pedal, i have a budget condensor mic i generally use for vocals and acoustic, however i live in japan and the rainy season plays havoc with its noise levels so i used a dynamic vocal mic.
some of the other sounds came from a korg X5 keyboard whilst every thing else is vst/dx. finally i used soundforge to adjust the overall level. i read alot about the importance monitoring and room acoustics but have yet to spend money on this (wife and kid to support), so all mixing and monitoring went through my hifi.

i hope this gives sufficient overview. thanks for your help - all remixing offers gladly accepted

regards

koorby · Post by **koorby** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:03 am

Knockman, this is a very nice piece of music, I quite liked it.

You can get a cleaner mix of this song by just doing a few simple things:

1. Bring your lead vocal volume up a few db, reduce the reverb. At the moment it's getting lost in the mix.
2. Reduce the frequency "wash" from all the instruments by applying EQ to each of them. Some of the instruments, backing vocals, pads etc are competing with your lead vocal for frequency space. For example, give that nice pan flute more top end.
3. You have some nice guitar strums in there, bring them out a little, less reverb, pan it more left/right. In the section with flute and guitar together, give the flute more top end in EQ.
4. Move your bass pan to the left, not right
5. When recording your vocals, hang some bed spreads on the walls around the microphone.

Lastly, start the remix will all your faders down to zero and bring them up one by one. You'll be amazed how much "space" you can reclaim.

The best effect you can use on you mix is EQ.

Overall, I like this song a lot - very British - good work - post some more of your stuff here.

Sicklecell666 · Post by **Sicklecell666** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:16 am

I disagree about the verb on the vocals, the style of this song practically demands it; it gives that lonely, old-timey speaker box sound. What I think would be cool is to have a slow flange or phaser on the chorus parts. The snare should move back a little with a touch of verb I think as well, & the flute is too loud in most parts.

Come to think of it the only parts of the music that bother me are the ones that are un-effected, but that's my taste, I like it rich

The EQ suggestions are spot on though.

Speaking soley in terms of composition, I think it's a fantastic piece of songwriting, & I look forward to hearing more from you. There's real heart in this song that I don't hear often. If you stick around here a few minutes a day you'll be amazed at what you can learn mechanically to augment that natural talent you have.

Good luck.

mystahr · Post by **mystahr** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:12 am

There is something very bowie-ish about this tune. Partly because of the vox, but also in composition.

The advice I can only give next to everything that has been said before is to not only do the tracks one by one, but to pair tracks as well... The biggest problems I hear are the paddy and longer sounds clashing with the other sounds, muddying the composition quite a lot.

As said before, EQ should be your main target on getting a better balanced and mixed track. Better to cut then to add though, where the padded sounds need the most cutting so to allow the other instruments to shine through.

I've bookmarked the site for later listens to the other tunes

knockman · Post by **knockman** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:13 am

thanks people. forgive me for not thanking each of you personally but this applies to all - eveyone has been wonderfully kind and clear in your advice. i'll be investigating the eq and pan first off as this seems a common concensus.

it's difficult for me to describe the sound i strive for, i sense that it's not 'modern' as such - the bowie reference is certainly welcome - don't know if it's reciprocated!

i'm very pushed for time (work/family) when i do get something done i hope you folks will listen again.
meanwhile if anyone would care to point me in the direction of their own, or other people's, work that would demonstrate what's lacking in mine, i'm all ears.

regards

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:54 am

Wow, top tune again. Good day in the cafe this

Yeah its kind of bowie-ish but also reminds me of war of the worlds for some reason?

Very good.

Demi

as they say round these parts

Jim

Sascha Franck · Post by **Sascha Franck** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:47 am

Hey there - nice track!

Some comments:
The lead vocals indeed are getting a bit lost (the reverb might be OK though, they could simply stand out more). For my taste the drums are a bit too much in the background as well, but that might only be me.
The choire-ish synth sound IMO is too loud, the flute parts as well.

However, I would try to do the following:
Set the chorus (in general: the part where most of the instruments are playing) into cycle mode, pull all the faders to zero.
No concentrate on what you want to be listenable the most. IMO that'd be vocals, bass, drums and some sort of harmony instrument (whichever you prefer).
Try to focus on the balance between those at first.
I'd then add the rest of the instruments and check for EQ-ing (make sure there's not too much frequency ranges overlapping others - the flutes for example seem to have a very broad mid spectrum which makes them overlap a lot of other things). Try to find the frequencies which may conflict with others or simply annoy you. Usually this can be done with almost any EQ, using a relatively narrow Q-factor (well, unless you do some low/hi shelving).
Boost the EQs gain for that particular band and move it around. That way you can easily spot frequencies that you don't like. After that, pull the gain down to cut those.

I would also make sure that all of your "non-basic" instruments are placed properly, regarding panorama.
Golden rule: Important stuff (esp. vocals, basses, kicks and snares, your main harmony instrument) should be more or less centered with not too much room FX on them (well, you *may* like a lot of reverb on the vocals and for this particular tune it even seems to work). The other instruments could then be placed more or less freely in the panorama, which will not only make things sound more sorted but also add some stereo imaging.

There's like three general things in terms of sound placement in a mix:
- Sorting by level. Obviously the most important things should be the loudest.
- Sorting by frequency. Regarding that, in an optimal mix each instrument should have its own frequency range. Of course your main instruments should be allowed to cover a broader frequency range, this is especially true for vocals. Sorting by frequency might be the most important part, plus it seriously interacts with sorting by level.
- Sorting by room placement. Includes the mentioned pan settings but also the amount of room FX you may add. This might be the hardest part, as a) you need to have proper reverbs and delays handy and b) it could just not work as one would think. For example, you usually may think a pad could be "hidden" in some reverb/delay - but I often experience them to become all wishy-washy then.
I have to admit that I'm pretty lousy when it comes to that.

In addition you may have to sort out dynamic things. Especially on dynamic things such as vocals, drums or acoustic guitars there might be some peaks that you probably won't even notice just following your ears, but they may bring the overall mix to levels above 0dB easily, so you'll have to lower down your master - certainly not what you want.
Finding the right balance between only limiting certain clips and pumping up others is a VERY tough thing IMO. Again I'm rather lousy at this, so I won't be able to post any concrete tips.

In general, when I start a mix, I usually try to switch off all FX at first (unless they are part of the sound, such as a loud rhythmic delay or so). I may also switch off all EQs as well.
Then I would just make up some "fader only" mix. After that I might perhaps care about unwanted frequencies. Usually, a pretty good indicator that some frequencies need sorting is when you'd like to have some signal louder while at the same time noticing it would mess up something else.
Room information usually is the last thing I would care about (unless, as said, a certain kind of room would be part of a sound).

But hey, I'm not a good mixer either, not at all... so take all this with a grain of salt...

hoping for feedback