Imperial Delay by Boz Digital only $299..

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
KVRer
23 posts since 29 Dec, 2005

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:31 pm

I've been debating whether or not to interject and explain the pricing on this or to just sit back and just view this thread as entertainment. I'll take my marketing mask of for a minute and explain to you guys what's going on here. Here's the deal:

Any company who makes recording software is selling their stuff to two completely different markets, the Commercial market and the Consumer market. Each of these markets plays by different rules.

The commercial market has much deeper pockets, but is a lot smaller. These are the mega studios and the big producers, etc. These guys are not hanging out on KVR forums. For them, buying software is an investment. If they need a certain plugin, they are not going to wait for it to be on sale. If you have Elton John in your studio and he says "I need this effect on my vocals" you are not going to say "Oh yeah, I know what will do that! Waves has a plugin that does that exactly. I hear they have great Black Friday sales, so I'll pick it up next month so we can finish this song." Obviously that's not how it goes down. He needs that plugin and he needs it now, and the price is almost irrelevant (up to a point obviously). In the commercial market, the cost of the plugin reflects on the quality. These guys don't have time to sift through 1000s of plugins to find the one they like. MSRP is a great way to filter out the low quality stuff (whether it's a valid filter or not is definitely up for debate. I have tons of free plugins that I love, but I had to sort through a lot of crappy ones to find them.)

The consumer market, on the other hand, is a completely different beast. For the most part, plugins are not investments, they are toys. No, me having two guitars is not an investment. I would not lose income if I lost one of my guitars. The consumer market doesn't have nearly as much time pressure as the commercial market. The consumer market tends to (and should) shop by sales. Most of the time, we don't have any real pressing need to buy stuff, we just have pressing wants. That's why we wait for sales, because by being patient, we can get our toys and save a bunch of money. The consumer market is a lot bigger, but doesn't have deep pockets.

So how do you sell the same product to both markets?

You can do the Sonar/PT/Steinberg model where you make a product and then make crippled versions of it and sell the crippled version for a lower price. The idea is that people will get hooked and upgrade if they need to down the road. That probably works well, but requires more development time and resources. That's fine for large companies, not so good for small companies.

You can do the Reaper model, where they have two prices for the exact same product. They are relying on the honor system to enforce the market differences. That works, except for the fact that Reaper will always be known as the $60 DAW, which is a shame because it's by far the best DAW I've ever used.

Or you can do the Waves model, which is to price your plugins high and have sales. That way you use time pressure instead of honor system pressure to separate your markets. I used to think it was dumb, but the more I understand the market, the more it actually make sense to me. Obviously, that's what we did with this Delay.

The $300 price tag should be irrelevant to everybody here at KVR. That price isn't meant for you. It's meant for a different market altogether. The $59 price tag is what is meant for you. The projected sales from KVR members after the price gets hiked is hovering right around 0 (give or take a few). If you are offended by the $300 price tag, it's for no other reason that you are just looking for an excuse to be offended by something. Yeah, being able to say "$240 OFF!!!!!" makes for a great email subject, but nobody's going to buy based on that alone.

Yes, the price will go up to $299 after the initial sale is over. Once it has had time to percolate through to commercial market, it will go on sale again for a consumer price. I don't know how long that will be. So no, the high price tag wasn't pulled out of thin air. It also wasn't meant to gouge customers.

I could probably write 10 more pages on this, because I find it all fascinating, but I don't think anyone would care to read it.

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KVRAF
10107 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:40 pm

Boz, I hear you and understand most of what you are saying. I however still think the pro market may be a bit upset if after they pay $299 you eventually drop it back down.

rsp
sound sculptist

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KVRAF
16257 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:48 pm

bozmillar wrote:I've been debating whether or not to interject and explain the pricing on this or to just sit back and just view this thread as entertainment. I'll take my marketing mask of for a minute and explain to you guys what's going on here. Here's the deal:

Any company who makes recording software is selling their stuff to two completely different markets, the Commercial market and the Consumer market. Each of these markets plays by different rules.

The commercial market has much deeper pockets, but is a lot smaller. These are the mega studios and the big producers, etc. These guys are not hanging out on KVR forums. For them, buying software is an investment. If they need a certain plugin, they are not going to wait for it to be on sale. If you have Elton John in your studio and he says "I need this effect on my vocals" you are not going to say "Oh yeah, I know what will do that! Waves has a plugin that does that exactly. I hear they have great Black Friday sales, so I'll pick it up next month so we can finish this song." Obviously that's not how it goes down. He needs that plugin and he needs it now, and the price is almost irrelevant (up to a point obviously). In the commercial market, the cost of the plugin reflects on the quality. These guys don't have time to sift through 1000s of plugins to find the one they like. MSRP is a great way to filter out the low quality stuff (whether it's a valid filter or not is definitely up for debate. I have tons of free plugins that I love, but I had to sort through a lot of crappy ones to find them.)

The consumer market, on the other hand, is a completely different beast. For the most part, plugins are not investments, they are toys. No, me having two guitars is not an investment. I would not lose income if I lost one of my guitars. The consumer market doesn't have nearly as much time pressure as the commercial market. The consumer market tends to (and should) shop by sales. Most of the time, we don't have any real pressing need to buy stuff, we just have pressing wants. That's why we wait for sales, because by being patient, we can get our toys and save a bunch of money. The consumer market is a lot bigger, but doesn't have deep pockets.

So how do you sell the same product to both markets?

You can do the Sonar/PT/Steinberg model where you make a product and then make crippled versions of it and sell the crippled version for a lower price. The idea is that people will get hooked and upgrade if they need to down the road. That probably works well, but requires more development time and resources. That's fine for large companies, not so good for small companies.

You can do the Reaper model, where they have two prices for the exact same product. They are relying on the honor system to enforce the market differences. That works, except for the fact that Reaper will always be known as the $60 DAW, which is a shame because it's by far the best DAW I've ever used.

Or you can do the Waves model, which is to price your plugins high and have sales. That way you use time pressure instead of honor system pressure to separate your markets. I used to think it was dumb, but the more I understand the market, the more it actually make sense to me. Obviously, that's what we did with this Delay.

The $300 price tag should be irrelevant to everybody here at KVR. That price isn't meant for you. It's meant for a different market altogether. The $59 price tag is what is meant for you. The projected sales from KVR members after the price gets hiked is hovering right around 0 (give or take a few). If you are offended by the $300 price tag, it's for no other reason that you are just looking for an excuse to be offended by something. Yeah, being able to say "$240 OFF!!!!!" makes for a great email subject, but nobody's going to buy based on that alone.

Yes, the price will go up to $299 after the initial sale is over. Once it has had time to percolate through to commercial market, it will go on sale again for a consumer price. I don't know how long that will be. So no, the high price tag wasn't pulled out of thin air. It also wasn't meant to gouge customers.

I could probably write 10 more pages on this, because I find it all fascinating, but I don't think anyone would care to read it.
you COULD write 10 more pages (maybe call your post "how to lose customers and alienate people"). i mean, any advice to quit while you were ahead would have ended the post at about line 2

but what do i know ?? i'm just looking for an excuse to get offended :shrug:

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Banned

Topic Starter

1181 posts since 24 Jun, 2014 from Giza Plateau

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:58 pm

Thank you for contribution Boz, honestly all i can say is that your statement is strange.. ..very strange.

One point for a non-Elton-customer like me is: I don't like to be under pressure to buy something (even more if i have to pay the end-price which is called intro-price because of the "pro-market")

Also there is no Pro and non-Pro market only there's also Semi-Pro (which i believe is big nowdays for stuff like you create) and what you simply forgot.

I could easily write 10 pages as well, no problem but who cares it's your business.
Last edited by valerian_777 on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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KVRist
433 posts since 27 Apr, 2013 from Denmark

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:06 pm

It genuinely thought it was a deliberate joke.

Now it's just a joke.

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KVRAF
32507 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:09 pm

bozmillar wrote:I used to think it was dumb
You were right the first time. Your advert in my email stated "It will most definitely never be priced this low again" - now you are backtracking and saying you will occasionally drop the price again (maybe not as low). That's a great way to piss everyone off - the people who you imagine will pay the premium price won't if they have any sense because they know it will come down, or even worse, those few that fall for it will feel cheated and angry because they paid a ton and then it came down, and the people you think will want to buy it when it's a lower price may not do so because they feel, like me, that you are pressuring them with the message "buy it now or you'll never be able to afford it again". I actually had it in the cart on your site but then thought half of it was a reaction to feeling I only had a few days to snap it up at that price - and then I felt manipulated and closed the page. I am sure I am not the only one feeling like that - treat your customers like adults not mugs, with a fair stable price and quit messing everyone around with tactical marketing.
Last edited by aMUSEd on Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KVRAF
7086 posts since 17 Feb, 2005

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:11 pm

Now I'm not trying to be condescending of any dev's hard work, but as pricing goes, the higher the price, the more the customer gets, it's always been this way.

There are real reasons why a plugin could cost a pile more than the competitors', and without getting into any fallacious claims, might be the reason for the higher price. Free plugin devs know what their plugins will cost, just as commercial devs do.

But this thing about giving price "meaning" via what market channels you intend to flaunt your product on, is bogus. The only thing price means to the customer is how much they choose to spend, eventually, spent after the glowing aura of Elton John leaves the room. Whether it's an investment or not is not your place to decide, as you sell the product and the customer uses it, or attempts to use it, or fails to use it, or just gives it away. Your customer has the product in it's final form and that's what they paid for, and that's what they get. By setting the bar high and calling your product an investment, means everyone needs to step back and take a really fine look, because you don't make money by spending it.

I know I am in this position.

KVRist
289 posts since 7 Oct, 2005 from San Francisco

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:15 pm

I think most of us understand the idea behind pricing, and how price don't matter when Elton needs a line. We just don't understand why he would prefer this over all of the other choices.

KVRer
23 posts since 29 Dec, 2005

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:16 pm

aMUSEd wrote:Your advert in my email stated "It will most definitely never be priced this low again" - now you are backtracking and saying you will occasionally drop the price again (maybe not as low).
I'm not backtracking. The price won't be this low again. I always do a big sale when I launch a plugin. You can call it whatever you want, I view it as rewarding people who are taking a risk by buying a plugin that is brand new on the market. Frankly, I think those people deserve a discount for taking a bigger risk.

Nope, it won't be $299 forever. There will be a sale again. I don't know when (I'm not saying this in a marketing voice, I'm saying this because I actually don't know.) but it won't be as low as the intro price.

KVRist
322 posts since 8 Dec, 2013

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:34 pm

bozmillar wrote:I've been debating whether or not to interject and explain the pricing on this or to just sit back and just view this thread as entertainment. I'll take my marketing mask of for a minute and explain to you guys what's going on here. Here's the deal:

Any company who makes recording software is selling their stuff to two completely different markets, the Commercial market and the Consumer market. Each of these markets plays by different rules.

The commercial market has much deeper pockets, but is a lot smaller. These are the mega studios and the big producers, etc. These guys are not hanging out on KVR forums. For them, buying software is an investment. If they need a certain plugin, they are not going to wait for it to be on sale. If you have Elton John in your studio and he says "I need this effect on my vocals" you are not going to say "Oh yeah, I know what will do that! Waves has a plugin that does that exactly. I hear they have great Black Friday sales, so I'll pick it up next month so we can finish this song." Obviously that's not how it goes down. He needs that plugin and he needs it now, and the price is almost irrelevant (up to a point obviously). In the commercial market, the cost of the plugin reflects on the quality. These guys don't have time to sift through 1000s of plugins to find the one they like. MSRP is a great way to filter out the low quality stuff (whether it's a valid filter or not is definitely up for debate. I have tons of free plugins that I love, but I had to sort through a lot of crappy ones to find them.)

The consumer market, on the other hand, is a completely different beast. For the most part, plugins are not investments, they are toys. No, me having two guitars is not an investment. I would not lose income if I lost one of my guitars. The consumer market doesn't have nearly as much time pressure as the commercial market. The consumer market tends to (and should) shop by sales. Most of the time, we don't have any real pressing need to buy stuff, we just have pressing wants. That's why we wait for sales, because by being patient, we can get our toys and save a bunch of money. The consumer market is a lot bigger, but doesn't have deep pockets.

So how do you sell the same product to both markets?

You can do the Sonar/PT/Steinberg model where you make a product and then make crippled versions of it and sell the crippled version for a lower price. The idea is that people will get hooked and upgrade if they need to down the road. That probably works well, but requires more development time and resources. That's fine for large companies, not so good for small companies.

You can do the Reaper model, where they have two prices for the exact same product. They are relying on the honor system to enforce the market differences. That works, except for the fact that Reaper will always be known as the $60 DAW, which is a shame because it's by far the best DAW I've ever used.

Or you can do the Waves model, which is to price your plugins high and have sales. That way you use time pressure instead of honor system pressure to separate your markets. I used to think it was dumb, but the more I understand the market, the more it actually make sense to me. Obviously, that's what we did with this Delay.

The $300 price tag should be irrelevant to everybody here at KVR. That price isn't meant for you. It's meant for a different market altogether. The $59 price tag is what is meant for you. The projected sales from KVR members after the price gets hiked is hovering right around 0 (give or take a few). If you are offended by the $300 price tag, it's for no other reason that you are just looking for an excuse to be offended by something. Yeah, being able to say "$240 OFF!!!!!" makes for a great email subject, but nobody's going to buy based on that alone.

Yes, the price will go up to $299 after the initial sale is over. Once it has had time to percolate through to commercial market, it will go on sale again for a consumer price. I don't know how long that will be. So no, the high price tag wasn't pulled out of thin air. It also wasn't meant to gouge customers.

I could probably write 10 more pages on this, because I find it all fascinating, but I don't think anyone would care to read it.
Hi Boz,

thanks for your post. Two quick points:
- first you mention the need to protect studio investments,
yet the two prices for the same product that can occur
randomly does not protect the investment.
- second i do not agree with your statement that most ppl here got offended. I read more of a "wtf??" vibe. For example the imperial
delay is as good as echoboy and uad space echo together
judging by the price. These are top end quality products
squarely targeting big studios and have long histories of top hits
made with them, major industry awards etc, yet they are priced
very far down from imperial. There must be something amazing
about imperial which most ppl here could not perceive. That is the
more useful info that Boz Digital could provide.

Cheers,

a satisfied customer (who is scratching his head regardless)

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KVRAF
1737 posts since 15 Mar, 2013 from Germany

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:01 pm

Guys, stop quoting the whole wall of text in every reply :roll:

KVRian
1371 posts since 1 Jun, 2008

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:22 pm

The price is completely insane. It's an "easy-to-use" creative effect, not some niche professional processor. The GUI alone looks like it's catered to semi-pro and hobbyists with its impractical 3D look.
Also it's not that amazing. It still needs a lot of fine-tuning. Some of the design feels sluggish and unmusical. Check out Waves' H-Delay for a delay plugin with great design and control.

KVRAF
2446 posts since 12 Sep, 2004

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:35 pm

There's a simple solution to this artificial pricing problem. AAX DSP version is $800, AAX native version is $400, VST version is $200. That's the way it used to be done, why create your own artificial formula when there's already one that works?
You need to limit that rez, bro.

KVRAF
3607 posts since 10 Sep, 2010 from A shit hole (Ireland).

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:22 pm

aMUSEd wrote:
You were right the first time. Your advert in my email stated "It will most definitely never be priced this low again" - now you are backtracking and saying you will occasionally drop the price again (maybe not as low). That's a great way to piss everyone off - the people who you imagine will pay the premium price won't if they have any sense because they know it will come down, or even worse, those few that fall for it will feel cheated and angry because they paid a ton and then it came down, and the people you think will want to buy it when it's a lower price may not do so because they feel, like me, that you are pressuring them with the message "buy it now or you'll never be able to afford it again". I actually had it in the cart on your site but then thought half of it was a reaction to feeling I only had a few days to snap it up at that price - and then I felt manipulated and closed the page. I am sure I am not the only one feeling like that - treat your customers like adults not mugs, with a fair stable price and quit messing everyone around with tactical marketing.
aMUSEd has totally nailed it... You should be rethinking you strategy Boz. First rule of business - Don't upset potential clients and keep the ones you have happy. I consider myself in the latter camp as I did buy T-Bone (which is a good plugin).
“Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it.”
― Christopher Hitchens

KVRAF
3880 posts since 15 Sep, 2010

Post Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:13 pm

bozmillar wrote:
In the commercial market, the cost of the plugin reflects on the quality.
Really? People ''in the commercial market'' really think that, in 2014? That really sounds like 1997 to me with the old Pro Tools monopoly era. Thinking -and saying this- isn't disrespectful to your customers, clients & targetted market? 'Hey pay more, yeah the plugin isn't really better than something at $59 but who cares, it's expensive so that means it's probably great & better!'' Come on man.

When hearing this, I'm glad not to be in that commercial market your are talking about to be honest. I would be quite insulted to read this. But who am I uh? Just a dude from KVR after all… Good luck anyway, I mean it. Cheers!
Last edited by Neon Breath on Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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