KVR Audio

fese · Post by **fese** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:26 pm

So at the moment I have a SE electronics s2200 and a Nt1A, both solid microphones but I am constantly having problems with brittle hi end and harsh lisp on my voice despite having tried several positions and placement. Annoying.
Maybe it is still my fault for not being good at recording, but I as I could afford a mike in the €500-600 area I am thinking about selling both my cheaper mikes and get one that is (hopefully) better.

I don't want a tube mike or a larger-than-life vocal mike, it should be relatively neutral without an overhyped top end. I'd like to use it for vocals, maybe acoustic guitar and other stuff like shakers etc. so more of an all rounder, if that exists.

I also don't want "the best microphone evah" as that doesn't exists but I'd like to have some suggestions so that I can order maybe two and send back the one I like less after testing it thorougly.
So far I have the Neumann tlm502 (who wouldn't want to have a Neumann?) or the AT 4050 on my list.

Any suggestions? Or anyone being the opinion that I need to aim higher than €500? Anyone thinks I am stupid and should spend more time practicing? (Me!

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Mivo · Post by **Mivo** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:32 pm

Have you given a Shure SM58 a try? Perhaps the SM57, if you are loud (metal/etc). A bit more expensive would be a Blue Baby Bottle, which should also do fine with the acoustic guitar. (This is actually a very sexy mic.)

RexXx · Post by **RexXx** » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:13 pm

Shure SM7B or Shure SM58/SM57 as mentioned.

JonSolo · Post by **JonSolo** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:51 am

Both previous posts are right. The Shure SM57/58 gives you a well rounded mic, usable for a range of things, and valuable in the studio or live. While you are at it ALSO grab the Blue Baby Bottle as mentioned (I think both could fit in your price range). There is very little exaggerated in that mic. It has a clean responsive mid and sounds great on male or female vocals, as well as some thinner guitars like an acoustic Ibanez.

Mac Hine · Post by **Mac Hine** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:34 am

I have exactly same microphones (SE electronics s2200 and a Nt1A) and same problems. One thing which have little helped was that when I watched the tutorials about nt-1a. They suggested that if high end feels too crisp, turn the mic sideways, it will make the top end more calm. (but you propably have tried that allready). It did not remove problems with room ambience.

Anyway, I have also been looking for new mic under 500e and it seems that most are suggesting the SM7B. I cant test it anywhere so I have been worried about spending another 400e just to notice that it really does not make any difference to current setup. I just would hope that it could remove problems with room ambience? I have looked lot of youtube reviews about different mics but it seems that all of those include some lovely singing rnb voices... hard to tell how it works with normal bad "shouting"

Anyway, if you find something you like, let us know... may be solution for me too.

Mac Hine · Post by **Mac Hine** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:34 am

Strange...double post

fese · Post by **fese** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:45 pm

Mac Hine wrote:I have exactly same microphones (SE electronics s2200 and a Nt1A) and same problems. One thing which have little helped was that when I watched the tutorials about nt-1a. They suggested that if high end feels too crisp, turn the mic sideways, it will make the top end more calm. (but you propably have tried that allready). It did not remove problems with room ambience.

Yeah, tried all that. Result: still meh. Might also be room related.

Anyway, I have also been looking for new mic under 500e and it seems that most are suggesting the SM7B. I cant test it anywhere so I have been worried about spending another 400e just to notice that it really does not make any difference to current setup. I just would hope that it could remove problems with room ambience? I have looked lot of youtube reviews about different mics but it seems that all of those include some lovely singing rnb voices... hard to tell how it works with normal bad "shouting"

Anyway, if you find something you like, let us know... may be solution for me too.

Well, I haven't actually considered dynamic mics. I got an old Shure Unisphere somewhere which I bought second hand like twenty years ago, don't know how that relates to a SM57/58. Haven't used it for a long time but could actually be worth a try.
I also used a cheap thomann ribbon microphone once, I quite liked that sound, but of course you have other problems with that like boominess. You need a good preamp, which is also true for dynamic mics afaik as they usually have very weak output levels and need to be amplified quite a lot without adding too much noise.

I am in the lucky situation that I could afford a +500€ microphone and that I live in Germany where you can order sth via internet and get a full refund if you send it back. That is kinda cool because watching YouTube vids and reading reviews/asking forums cannot help you at all in choosing the gear that is right for you, in my opinion. It's just clues what might work.

Regarding room ambience and unwanted noise: "Uncle E" recommended in a thread somewhere here a Shure condenser stage mic which is quite directional and might help with such problems. Don't remember the model sadly...

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:50 pm

fese wrote:So at the moment I have a SE electronics s2200 and a Nt1A, both solid microphones but I am constantly having problems with brittle hi end and harsh lisp on my voice despite having tried several positions and placement. Annoying.

One of the best microphones and bit of a "secret" is the new Rode NT1, the black one. It is ridiculously versatile and can be exceptional on a HUGE amount of sources. It's also one of the quietest microphones you can get for any kind of money. Due to it's "voicing" it takes EQ and compression exceptionally well and is superlatively SMOOTH, the exact opposite to the problems you mentioned. It's just overall a great microphone. Highly recommended (we're about to get at least 2 more of them, maybe 4). I have a feeling these microphones, if the production run is cut short due to bad sales, will skyrocket in price. They are THAT good. Oh.. and it sells for 249 euros as a kit, combined with a pretty solid popshield and a good shockmount from Rycote. Extremely good value for money package!

http://www.thomann.de/de/rode_nt1_kit.htm

Note, I'm talking about the new NT1. Not the old shrill and nasty (in my opinion) NT1-A. The old one is exactly what you described.. shrill and nasty on almost all sources. It can work well in some drum overhead scenarios but it requires good cymbals and a drummer who isn't too heavy handed on the metal.

EDIT: Here is a great testing video where you very clearly hear the differences. Especially at 9:00, the "commercial voice over, hyped speaking" thing where he is close to the microphone.

Notice how the NT-1A is quite overhyped and very bright, making EQ and compression a painful task.. whereas the NT1 black is very smooth, almost to the point of being dull (it isn't! Don't get fooled by the brightness of the NT-1A!!). It takes EQ and Compression like an absolute champ! It's one of the best microphones released this decade.

Cheers!
bManic

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:04 pm

Here's another video where this guy creates a whole track using only the NT1.

fese · Post by **fese** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:21 pm

Thanks bManic, nice tip. Even on the iPad the video shows what I experienced with the nt1a, those harsh dominant esses that are so hard to tame.
Also, nice to hear that it is not (only) my lack of skills that causes the problems.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:27 pm

Might sound obvious but what are using in the way of pre-amplifiers for your LDC microphones? Might be an area worth investigating, A good example being this handy device which enables you to vary the impedance/load of any mic pre-amp which will enable you to get the best out of mic and pre-amp http://www.magnetoaudiolabs.com/products.html
If you are handy with electronics then it is quite straight forward to knock your own one up (Just a variable resistance for the transducer at its most simplest).

Other than that, The quality of microphones in the lower mid price range has gotten really excellent and I'll plus one Rode's newly designed/made over NT1.

What works the best for me vocal wise (well its angry yelling, growling and other strange noises with no actual singing involved) is the already mentioned Shure SM7B, It is built incredibly well and always delivers plus doubles up for kick drums, floor toms, bass and guitar cabs amongst other things. If you don't fancy spending that much on a dynamic then as long as your microphone pre-amplifier has enough gain you can take the transformer out of an SM57 which gives it a much more SM7B like character (but with an output drop in volume, Hence the reason I stated you'll want to have some pure, clean gain/headroom on tap to accommodate. It is a fairly common modification which you'll find in any google search). Another one along the same lines but a little different is the 'fraser' mic, Good old Electro-Voice RE20, I'm also a big fan of Sennheiser's MD421 which I use on electric guitar cabinets with a 57 pretty much everytime, I've not had any luck with it for vocal duties though, Senny's evolution series/range has some very decent models available.

Audio-Technica have a good few great value for money work horses, Also be sure to look out for used bargains and Beyerdynamic have some fantastic microphones out there, Just ask Dan Worral what is in his mic cupboard regarding beyerdynamic

I've also been liking sE Electronics fairly cheap X-series/range. Again if you have one or two good quality, high headroom, clean mic pre's then I'd definitely recommend investigating the good old ribbon options available, Some of the never active designs which run off of 48v are not at all fussy with what mic pre-amps they're piped into, This is a really decent all rounder as far as ribbon mics go http://www.mesanovicmicrophones.com/#!model-2/c1ft7
Then for a reliable and quality LDC I always go to the AKG C214, It just delivers everytime without sounding brittle or harsh (unless you want it to of course), Lewitt released a rather interesting LDC earlier this year which is the quietist I've ever heard/used (Not my own, I got the chance at KMR audio in London). This one http://www.lewitt-audio.com/LCT-Series/LCT-640. Sontronics have some decent ribbons including phantom powered ribbons in their range

There are that many to chose from these days that it is quite mind boggling, Same with microphone pre-amplifiers and hell even DI boxes to choose from it gets confusing what is cheap crap marked up, real diamonds in the rough and everything in between. Sometimes you do get what you pay for but believe me I've had a few which were definitely not what the hype made them out to be

Just my 2 pence FWIW, Hope you find something that works out well for your needs/wants and all the best

Dean

fese · Post by **fese** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:54 pm

Thanks dean, that's a lot of suggestions, almost too much, but then I asked for it, no?

The Akg C214 I'll add to my list, beyerdynamic wasn't really on my radar, but you should never underestimate good ol' German engineering

though I don't know much about their models. I remember reading they have a ribbon mic that is quite suited for vocals but don't remember which one. A ribbon wouldn't of course be much of an all rounder.

Not sure about the SM7B, from what I heard it is used more on rock singer which I am not. Is it useful on acoustic guitar? It would be nice if I had a mic that would work on vocals and guitar...

I don't think I need to do anything about my preamps, I have a RME Fireface and a second hand Art vocal channel, most of the time I prefer the Fireface.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:27 pm

There's one more candidate. The Oktava MK-012 with their large capsule. We have two of these and they are ridiculously good for a variety of sources (especially voice over, acoustic guitars etc).

http://www.oktava-online.com/mk102.htm

Can be a bit hard to come by though.. Thomann sold them at some point but I'm not sure they have the large diaphragm capsule available.

EDIT: they have them and the price is awesome! http://www.thomann.de/de/oktava_mk_102.htm

EDIT2: This is the set we have, except we have a stereo matched pair. http://www.thomann.de/de/oktava_mk_012_20_black.htm

Winstontaneous · Post by **Winstontaneous** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:27 pm

I'll put in another vote for the Shure SM7B (or other large-diaphragm dynamic mic like the EV RE-20 or Sennheiser 421). Especially if you're working in a space with noise issues and/or one that isn't acoustically treated...and you find inexpensive condensers too crispy, a high-quality dynamic mic can be a revelation.

I'm borrowing a Rode NT1A, so I know the sound you're talking about...bright and detailed but not very flattering. For the sources I'm recording - my deep male voice, hand percussion (shakers & tambourine), some upright piano, and acoustic bass and guitar, the SM7B works well. It's not a super-sensitive audio microscope with a brilliant high end, but for my noisy old piano and parlor-size acoustic guitar with prominent midrange overtones, this works in my favor.

Dean Aka Nekro · Post by **Dean Aka Nekro** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:25 pm

I've not had much luck with the SM7B on acoustic guitar fese, It isn't one I'd reach for to cover such a task honestly and agreed your pre-amps are definitely NOT a problem whatsoever dude

Dean

Thinking about upgrading my microphone...