Heard that so many times, and I've always thought it was wrong.fmr wrote:What made this passage revolutionary is the chromaticism, and the unexpected resolutions of the voices. Tristan is full of things like this. That's why it is regarded as the beginning of the end of tonality.jancivil wrote:As what Tristan chord does, it's secondary dominant to V7. So spell it B D# F A, there is your flat five!
New series of blog articles about music theory
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- KVRian
- 1002 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
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- KVRian
- 1002 posts since 1 Dec, 2004
Just asking... in A minor, what's the difference between the French augmented 6th (F A B D#), and the tritonic substitution (flat five) of the dominant of the dominant? (F7b5)
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Functionally, nothing. Going back to say JS Bach, the German sixth is known as a 'pre-dominant'. It's frenched-up (note the 'whole tone scale' aspect) with essentially a b5. It isn't spelled that way because of the idea of it. Again, many will notice the half-diminished sonority and the trick of that G# as a strong beat, long appoggiatura resolving into the chord tone A setting this up as that pre-dominant in Tristan; so this is where spelling is interesting, revealing of the thinking. I would insist on the nomenclature and spelling accordingly; iv6 becomes V of V through this device.
Part of the reasoning for the breakdown of tonality when things became this chromatic; like the flat five substitution principle, it opens up radical shifts.
NB: Fø7, F Ab Cb Eb by comparison to <A minor>. Here Wagner makes an argument for it IN A MINOR, 'French Sixth/Appoggiatura G#'.
This was a big thing for Debussy, this move right here but also in sliding half-diminisheds and a blurring of tonality, so-called Impressionism in music.
Schoenberg was interested in these things - compare his fourth inversion ninth chord and these places where one loses their sense of footing as to key - and ultimately we know where he went. So the argument this is where tonality begins to dissolve or what-have-you is historically demonstrable.
Part of the reasoning for the breakdown of tonality when things became this chromatic; like the flat five substitution principle, it opens up radical shifts.
NB: Fø7, F Ab Cb Eb by comparison to <A minor>. Here Wagner makes an argument for it IN A MINOR, 'French Sixth/Appoggiatura G#'.
This was a big thing for Debussy, this move right here but also in sliding half-diminisheds and a blurring of tonality, so-called Impressionism in music.
Schoenberg was interested in these things - compare his fourth inversion ninth chord and these places where one loses their sense of footing as to key - and ultimately we know where he went. So the argument this is where tonality begins to dissolve or what-have-you is historically demonstrable.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 11162 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
This is a good explanation: "The augmented sixth interval is typically between the sixth degree of the minor scale (henceforth ♭6) and the raised fourth degree (henceforth ♯4). With standard voice leading, the chord is followed directly or indirectly by some form of the dominant chord, in which both ♭6 and ♯4 have resolved to the fifth scale degree (henceforth 5). This tendency to resolve outwards to 5 is why the interval is spelled as an augmented sixth, rather than enharmonically as a minor seventh (♭6 and ♭5). Although augmented sixth chords are more common in the minor mode, they are also used in the major mode by borrowing ♭6 of the parallel minor scale."MadBrain wrote:Just asking... in A minor, what's the difference between the French augmented 6th (F A B D#), and the tritonic substitution (flat five) of the dominant of the dominant? (F7b5)
Two good links to complement this matter about augmented sixths (because there are three types):
http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q38.html
http://www.tonalityguide.com/xxaug6.php
Last edited by fmr on Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRAF
- 11162 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal
You have another example as where the spelling is very important to tell us where we are: the diminished seventh. As a perfectly symmetrical chord, you can use any of its notes as the root, without changing the sound of the chord. But depending on which note you use as root, the following chord, assuming you will use the conventional rules of resolution, will be different. Therefore, it would be pointless to spell the chord one way, and then use the resolution of another spelling.
Fernando (FMR)
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
That question reveals where we are in harmonic considerations on this board. Jazz ideations are presented as chordal; this music is concerned with harmony as part-writing.
So functionally it's V of V but the thinking is not in blocks, it's linear. When you look at Schoenberg's functional chromaticism, there is this whole linear aspect to it, and ultimately he broke it all down to serialism and chords are no longer a care.
So functionally it's V of V but the thinking is not in blocks, it's linear. When you look at Schoenberg's functional chromaticism, there is this whole linear aspect to it, and ultimately he broke it all down to serialism and chords are no longer a care.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 106 posts since 14 Nov, 2009
Thanks guys for your advices and for spotting mistakes ! I tried to correct them all and did an overhaul of the site so it's more organized and beautiful : http://www.springbeats.com/node/30
