Scale Question

[kurodo]

Hi all,
Hoping someone can help with a point of confusion.

I've been experimenting with some exotic scales some of which use both sharps and flats within their formula:

Example:
C Eight Tone Spanish Scale
intervals: 1,b2,#2,3,4,b5,b6,b7
half-steps: 1-2-1-1-1-2-2-2
notes: C,Db,D#,E,F,Gb,Ab,Bb

Looking at the above example could I not write the scale as:
C,Db,Eb,E,F,Gb,Ab,Bb (all flats) ?

There are plenty of scales online like the above that mix and match sharps/flats but I can't see the reason even though it may be pretty straightforward.
I suspect the answer will be very obvious to some.

Any help appreciated.

[MadBrain]

Scales CAN have both flats and sharps. For instance, G minor melodic:

G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F#

It's just that the kind of scale where this can happen is not that common in occidental music.

[kurodo]

Scales CAN have both flats and sharps. For instance, G minor melodic:

G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F#

It's just that the kind of scale where this can happen is not that common in occidental music.

Yeah after seeing so many exotic scales using a combination of flats and sharps I figured they CAN.
But my question is why and what governs the rules behind it?

I mean I get the feeling its not a random thing and there's a reason its just I haven't come across this before and would like to cross it off my list of unknowns.

[MadBrain]

The way I do it:

For major scales: you start with the normal major signature, and then you add the appropriate flats on the fly if b2, b3, b6, b7 appear anywhere (or natural signs when appropriate). If #4/b5 appears, it's usually #4 if the natural 5th appears (-> lydian mode), and b5 if the natural 4th appears (-> locrian mode).

Minor scales are the same but you start with the normal natural minor key signature, and if major 3, 6, 7 appear, add the appropriate sharps (or natural signs).

For instance, if you take Ab double harmonic (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7), we start with an Ab major key signature (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G A), then we add the flats on b2 and b6, which gives us: Ab Bbb C Eb Eb F Gb A.

[kurodo]

The way I do it:

For major scales: you start with the normal major signature, and then you add the appropriate flats on the fly if b2, b3, b6, b7 appear anywhere (or natural signs when appropriate). If #4/b5 appears, it's usually #4 if the natural 5th appears (-> lydian mode), and b5 if the natural 4th appears (-> locrian mode).

Minor scales are the same but you start with the normal natural minor key signature, and if major 3, 6, 7 appear, add the appropriate sharps (or natural signs).

For instance, if you take Ab double harmonic (1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7), we start with an Ab major key signature (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G A), then we add the flats on b2 and b6, which gives us: Ab Bbb C Eb Eb F Gb A.

Thanks MadBrain,

The last scale I was experimenting with used the following notes in sequencer. (piano roll in Ableton is always sharps)
C D# F# G A A#

It looked like a derivative of the Hungarian Minor missing a note.
As it turned out I tracked it down as a Raga scale:
Raga Madhukauns:
But it was listed using the following notes:
C Eb F# G A Bb

As you can see it has an F# with 2 flats.
The above example was one of the scales which triggered this thread.
Previously I would have written it as:
C Eb Gb G A Bb which wouldn't have been far off the mark but still technically wrong.

Now that you've explained the rule that If #4/b5 appears, it's usually #4 if the natural 5th appears
the above Raga example makes a lot of sense.
Strange I've never come across the above rule and been doing this kind of thing for a while.
Always something new to learn.

Still can't quite understand though why the C Eight Tone Spanish Scale has a D#.
C,Db,D#,E,F,Gb,Ab,Bb
especially as I've seen it written using a C#
C C# D# E F Gb Ab Bb
The variations above make no sense to me.


Appreciated.

[Nystul]

You have a locrian concept here: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C. Then you have a raised third (E natural), which is presumably the "Spanish" part. I'm not sure if traditional Spanish music uses locrian like this or not, but it certainly uses phrygian with a raised third on the I chord. In that case your C chord become C E G instead of the C minor chord. So what see here is similar idea, but with a Gb thrown in.

Anyway, that's how I would write the scale. With the flats in the key signature, and E natural would be a common accidental. Now in an actually piece with this kind of scale, could you have a D# as an accidental? Sure. Especially if you have a chord where the E natural is important, like some altered C major chord. The D# could be either a note that leads up to the E, or possibly a #9 extension. And then I suppose you could have C# in a specific melodic line that goes C# to D# to E.

So it is the context the notes are used in the actual music that would have to determine it. This is always the case. Just looking at a scale doesn't tell us how it is used. Where is the melody going? What is the harmony? If you are going from Eb to Db to C, then changing those to sharps would be absurd. But if it's Db to Eb to E natural, where that E natural is part of a C major chord for example, it's probably more consistent in this case to change it to C# and D#. Otherwise the E natural should be Fb, because you don't want Eb leading to E natural, but you don't want Fb in your C major chord.

[kurodo]

Thanks for the input Nystul,

Yeah I am starting to realize that scales in their own right sometimes give nothing away about the context about any music written with them.
Its that contextual thing again, a bit like when I stumbled upon modes and started reading comments about how certain chord movements implied a particular mode.
Not being able to fall back purely on theory with its hard and fast rules threw me off for a bit until it gradually started to sink in.

I suspect the question I raised here about scale spellings falls into that kind of grey area where only practical real life examples will really hammer it all home.

What I can take away from this thread so far though certainly lifted the fog on the subject and for that I am grateful
Cheers.

[jancivil]

The last scale I was experimenting with

looked like a derivative of the Hungarian Minor missing a note.
As it turned out I tracked it down as a Raga scale:
Raga Madhukauns:
But it was listed using the following notes:
C Eb F# G A Bb

As you can see it has an F# with 2 flats.
The above example was one of the scales which triggered this thread.
Previously I would have written it as:
C Eb Gb G A Bb which wouldn't have been far off the mark but still technically wrong.

C Eb F# G A Bb is simply 1, b3, #4, 5, 6, b7.

Now that you've explained the rule that If #4/b5 appears, it's usually #4 if the natural 5th appears
the above Raga example makes a lot of sense.
Strange I've never come across the above rule...

If you have seven notes in the scale, you're going to pretty much want seven letters, just to be clearest in the most direct, simple manner.
The given notes of a raga are not going to be influenced by chords, so as you note, it's like the "[C] Hungarian minor" without the D.
(Furthermore, there is no flat five in Indian Classical Music. The fifth is kind of sacrosanct.)

Still can't quite understand though why the C Eight Tone Spanish Scale has a D#.
C,Db,D#,E,F,Gb,Ab,Bb
especially as I've seen it written using a C#
C C# D# E F Gb Ab Bb
The variations above make no sense to me.

There is no simple rule for spelling an 8-note scale, whatever makes the most sense to you for your usage. If there is no chord influencing your decision, there is no rule.

If the reasoning is, for example you are coloring a C7 harmony - let's say that is a dominant to F - here's what the notes will mean:

Db will be a flat 9, D# a sharp nine; Gb is flat five; Ab flat thirteen; Bb your seventh and E your third, with F chromatically passing.

So you're quite right, more involved spelling has a context.

[kurodo]

Thanks jancivil,
I think I've got a much better idea about the whole thing now.
Just need to get some practical under my belt and commit as much of what I can to memory.

I am glad I stumbled across Raga's as the notes from a good deal of their scales seem to generate a lot of non standard chords/harmonizations.
This allows me to concentrate on the melody rather than falling back on regular harmonization and as a result I am starting to hear the scales properly.

[jancivil]

"concentrate on the melody/starting to hear the scales properly" - thumbs up on recognizing that.

When I first encountered 'synthetic scales' like this, I didn't find them anything to do regarding chords, and in the sort of jazz that moves forward in functional, you know ii-V, modulating harmony, too much/too soon. Exception being (and this is more pertinent to the triad + extensions I pointed to in the 'Spanish' octatonic scale), the symmetrical octatonic is done a lot. C7 and [C Db D# E F# G A Bb] 1; 3; b5 or #11; 7; b9/#9; 13. And then when you abstract that row, 'going outside', it carries the connotations of harmony.
But the 'synthetic' scales which take 'exotic' or eastern types of objects as novel material tend to have a kind of complexity I find it's better to enjoy in itself, as a mode, and chords kind of in its way.