what goes into a good melody?

[deastman]

But take Ravel's Bolero. Yeah, it moves from C to E after a time, but the tune is what is is, a vivid memorable melody qua melody.

Yes, but Ravel was suffering from a degenerative brain condition when he wrote that.

[Musicologo]

There is a great deal of problems with melodies in the "West" and "copyright" due to notation: reducing a melody into some arbitrary symbolic components.

While for my PRO a line with durations and pitches is a Melody and cannot be copied, in most traditions (like Portuguese fado, for instance) that "melody" is in fact just a scheme for a million different melodies.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/pri ... melody.jpg

I'm sorry but THIS (look at picture in link) is not a melody. This is a "western symbolic way" of defining a melody, but in fact, THIS is an "average" of many infinite melodies.

It is like between 2 and 4 there is not only 3. Between 2 and 4 there are infinite numbers 2.76 2.890890 3.456784...

And what makes melodies memorable is way more than durations and pitches... is a whole plethora of microdeviations of rhythm and pitch in the whole continuum scale, and other parameters as well (vibrato, dynamics, articulations, timbric variations...)

My "rendition" of that JPG is unique and may be memorable or forgettable, just as your rendition(s) of the SAME symbols may be memorable or forgettable depending on what choice of all other parameters and microdeviations you emply.

In the extreme I dare to say that if I'm competent enough and study very hard the conventions of a given musical tradition I will be able to take ANY random scheme like that (any symbolic melody) and make of it something memorable and a hit.

What I've been defending since long ago is that within the virtualy infinite space of "schematic melodies" the ones that are actually easily singable by a human voice (not all of them are!) and more - are born out of the prosody of some mother language - will be easier to manipulate and will tend to have more sucess within the cultural community of that mother language.

[arkmabat]

Good choise of intervals and erratic timing.

[SJ_Digriz]

notes with timing that sound good together.

[jancivil]

^^ me thinks you doth protest too much, Mr Tone-Deafy :p

You don't even understand the reference there, do you. Ms Thing.

[Doug1978]

I knew that'd get a reaction.

Good enough to spike the ridiculous pomposity of your last sentence anyway:

The person in the street is the be all and end all of what should be, eh. Thank you, no. Chances are high she's tone-deaf and has only heard pop crap.
I'm a musician and I am interested in music itself.

Then again, I'd rather take the respected insights of music legends such as George Martin and Captain Beefheart, regarding melodies, than some anonymous self-important fellow on the internet who looks down on members of the public.
Each to their own, I guess...

[Katelyn]

Been keeping up with all the comments so far, all good input here.

It seems to me that the idea of a good, memorable melody being singable makes the most sense. Considering that if you go far back enough the earliest music from humans was likely just various vocalization until drums were invented. I mean, birds sing pretty well but I wouldn't know about our evolutionary ancestors lol.

But then what about the melodies that are by no means singable?

I've experimented at any time I'm bored with different melodies in my head or vocalized, based off of ones I already know in music I like. Actually I find that I'll start out with a beat or melody from a song I know then without thinking change parts of it as I go along... I even do this when listening to music sometimes overlayed on it when I'm just by myself enjoying the music. Perhaps I'll find something that way xD No but really I think maybe I've been trying to force it too much.

I think I need to actually revisit the idea of using speech patterns as a basis for melodies. I could see that going well as based off some mantras I know.

[jancivil]

/singable

So melodies shouldn't be over-complicated. They should have the 'person in the street being able to whistle it'.

The person in the street is the be all and end all of what should be, eh. Thank you, no.

"shouldn't be"? What's that even about, really. What does 'over-' complicated mean? Some people might overthink it, that's been touched on, but how does this get to be a truism?

Who is this 'person in the street'? The context there was, to me some really banal pop music. If that's simply divine to you, great for you, but we're back to 'what is good' melody.
I'm interested in other things, and I wouldn't gear anything to some notion like that. My experience of the world is that easily the majority of people in it prefer some things I would rather not have inflicted on me.

I find that I enjoy Katherine McPhee's renditions of Somewhere Over the Rainbow. I think the melody done straight is an excellent, well-crafted, evocative, memorable tune. However I like a lot better that she is singing all of these HOT licks over it. Some people hate that. I like it because I appreciate the musicianship, the imagination of it, the gutsiness of it and the accomplishment of it. She is creating new melody over that framework.

I like the Rishab Prasanna bansuri music. There is a framework or form, guidelines and a structure he creates new melody over. It's fairly ornate and 'complicated'. Where is the problem? My point of view is that some people lack the appreciation, just like some people would rather stick with more pedestrian reading or movies or what-have-you. I wouldn't want to take anything away from that experience or be a critic of it really, but I'm not going to recognize their limits as a valuation to be concerned with.

So, thanks for sharing, but I disagree with that as anything to do.


And DUDE: 'Methinks the lady does protest too much'...
'Hamlet and his mother, along with others, have been watching a play within a play, that Hamlet wrote based on his guess as to the set of events that occurred before his mother married his uncle Claudius.' The Player Queen, representing Hamlet's mother Queen Gertrude, declares in rather purple terms that she as a widow shall never remarry. Hamlet turns to his mother and asks: "How like you this play?" She says 'The lady doth protesteth too much, methinks.'; ie., that her going on about it so much reveals she is at least conflicted, if not disingenuous. As in the play within a play which refers to events in their life, it's ironic. (Hamlet: "O, but she'll keep her word.")
When people use that line, that's what they're going for.

I assure you I was quite sincere in my remarks to you. It just doesn't apply to what went on here.
So if you're going to be cute with a diss I recommend using something within your grasp.

[woggle]

no point putting this here

[jancivil]

[jancivil]

[woggle]

no point putting this here

[Doug1978]

An excellent point about memory resourcing singable melodies, woggle. Excellent videos too

/singable

So melodies shouldn't be over-complicated. They should have the 'person in the street being able to whistle it'.

The person in the street is the be all and end all of what should be, eh. Thank you, no.

"shouldn't be"? What's that even about, really. What does 'over-' complicated mean? Some people might overthink it, that's been touched on, but how does this get to be a truism?...

Whoever claimed it was a truism, apart from you?
Like everyone else in this thread, I've given my opinion about what constitutes a good melody for me.
Your values differ. Great...
As you yourself wrote on page 1 of this thread, you are ''at a loss'' regarding a definitive answer to the OP's question.
And as I said a couple of posts above, ''each to their own''.

So if you're going to be cute with a diss I recommend using something within your grasp.

Jan, before you want to argue about the meaning of Shakespeare's dramas with an English teacher, get your facts right.
For a start, you'll look like less of a pillock when you come out with your unnecessarily condescending insults (''if you're going to be cute with a diss I recommend using something within your grasp'' and )

Contrary to your misreading, Gertrude is actually only claiming that the Player Queen is affirming too much, to the point of losing credibility.
The Player Queen is not ''going on about it so much'' that she ''reveals she is at least conflicted, if not disingenuous'', as you wrongly seem to think.
The principal meaning of the word 'protest' in Shakespeare's day was "vow" or "declare solemnly'' to the point where others will question it.
Later meanings of ''protest'' such as ''object to'' or ''deny'' only emerged many years after Hamlet.
''The lady doth protest too much," does not mean that the Player Queen objects to the idea of remarriage. There is no conflict in the Player Queen's mind.

Gertrude says that Player Queen only affirms so much as to lose credibility.
And so your pompous statement that ''I'm a musician and I am interested in music itself'' is such an example of unintentional apophasis.
We are all musicians here at KVR. The fact that you need to state such a thing - and at the same time to distance yourself from members of the public, who are also interested in ''music itself''(!!) - just makes you look overly-defensive and loses you credibility.

As I correctly stated - you doth protest too much, Jan.
And to use your own line (with clause comma included), ''if you're going to be cute with a diss, I recommend using something within your grasp.''


Now back to the OP's question and the (equally valid) opinions of KVR members as to what makes a good melody...

[damoog]

just basic natural talent surely goes into writing a good melody line wether it be a soft lullaby or a huge metal riff,

take James Hetfield for example who in my opinion has a ridiculous amount of natural talent for writing brilliant and sometimes simple melody lines,i seriously doubt he spends hours analizing if an extra 3 notes would complete a riff

[Sparky77]

I tried to search to make sure this hadn't been discussed before, so my apologies if it had and I just suck at using the search feature.

Anyways I've done my best to keep studying music theory, particularly where melody is concerned and something really gets to me. I tend to see melody defined as 'a memorable sequence of notes that is aesthetically pleasing' or something like that. Okay, rather subjective, but isn't most things in life?

So I look up what tends to make a sequence of notes sound pleasing to the human mind, and I've read various stuff, some helpful some not.

But even with that, I still don't get what seperates just some random notes or what I'll oxymoronically call a 'non-melodic melody' from a 'melodic melody'. If the only measure is how pleasing it is, then how can I even begin to tell the difference? Because then what might sound melodic to me might not sound melodic to someone else.

I know that you can't say objectively what is good or bad beyond technical skill as far as art is concerned, So technically speaking, what DOES go into a good melody? Or any melody? And what is the best way to practice making complex, awesome melodies? Or even awesome simple melodies?

For me, a melody has to have 2 things:

Simplicity
Emotion

I think the emotional element is a must, the reason we listen to music to begin with.