Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[Burillo]

With this new business model, people are buying in to cakewalk intangible promise. Cakewalk promises that they will provide further development and bug fixes routinely.

...so in other words, no different than someone buying a new version of Sonar when it's just released.

[spirit]

Many software companies want to jump on the subscription idea because it's a guaranteed revenue stream. Instead of having to come up with really good updates and extras that motivate people to buy an upgrade, they just tie them into the rent model instead. Then they can relax a bit and bait-talk endlessly about all the great things coming sometime soon - so you stay subscribed. A little fear of what you'll lose if you stop renting is also vital to the formula. It's an ugly emotional model that generates and relies on customer anxiety.

But it works OK so long as not too many companies in your field do the same. Then it very quickly gets crowded and people need to make choices about how much they want to pay out in constant rent. It's very different psychology to a single purchase.

Companies typically move to this model when sales are flat or declining, they have income crisis, or the software has become so mature that all that can be added is useless bloatware that results in fewer upgrades each year. People "camp" at a good version and quite rightly see no reason to pay more.

It's to combat this that companies want to force you to pay rent.

If you still think this model is good then contemplate the situation if every program, synth, effect and app was on this renting model. Want to edit that track from a few years back? Hmmm, still renting all those VSTs are we or maybe you start getting little popups everywhere of "subscription expired". Maybe some will still work, maybe crippled, or no function at all. Who can say?

So I hope this little experiment in revenue-generation fails miserably. It's a bad precedent for the industry.

[xamido]

...so in other words, no different than someone buying a new version of Sonar when it's just released.

You know what you get when you buy new version.

You don't know what you will get at the end of your subscription. There's always possibility that they sell you promises of new feature to get you subscribed, without them actually being able to deliver it on time. Selling you pipe dream, without actual improvement.

Can they be held responsible if they don't deliver the feature on time?

[whyterabbyt]

Nah, i just happen to know your modus operandi by now.

That's interesting, because you've shown zero knowledge of it.

You're the kind who avoided answering something

You mean like that same exact time when you were avoiding answering something?
And how come you think your insistence I answer you on demand somehow trumps the rest of the argument?

Ah yes. I get it now, Im the kind who's not agreeing with you, resort to ad hominem attack.

, but responding by cherry picking people words.

Just so you remember, the words you accused me of cherry-picking were a response to someone else so not anything to do with avoiding anything, despite your clumsy attempt to conflate them into something.

That's why you don't come up with original answers, only counter argument.

Hmmm, when arguing with someone, xamido has a problem with their counter-arguments. Noted.

Let's keep it simple.

Are you okay with cakewalk new subscription model or not?

Its a pity its not simple, then, isnt it? I have varying degrees of okay and not-okay about different parts of it. And, as already stated waaaay at the beginning of this thread Im not currently likely to take them up on it.

Looking forward to your coninued ad hominems on the back of that.

[xamido]

Unable to say simple yes or no on simple question. Noted.

[whyterabbyt]

You don't know what you will get at the end of your subscription. There's always possibility that they sell you promises of new feature to get you subscribed, without them actually being able to deliver it on time. Selling you pipe dream, without actual improvement.

That looked like a counter-argument, how strange.

Of course, despite the disingenuous implication you're making, you do actually know what you get when you take up one of these subscriptions. You get what's available that day. What you dont know is what you will get on top of that over the course of the following year.
Just like any other DAW.

[Burillo]

...so in other words, no different than someone buying a new version of Sonar when it's just released.

You know what you get when you buy new version.

same as when you buy the subscription. you see, the subscription you get, doesn't give you continuous development. when you start a subscription, you're getting a working product. whatever they do in the meantime is only a bonus, but the subscription is essentially you getting the full Sonar but paying the whole year instead of a one-time payment. i.e. when you reach the end of your subscription, you become an owner of a full Sonar license (because you paid it out during the year), plus you also own whatever they've thrown in in the meantime, for free.

You don't know what you will get at the end of your subscription. There's always possibility that they sell you promises of new feature to get you subscribed, without them actually being able to deliver it on time. Selling you pipe dream, without actual improvement.

neither do you know if the bugs present in fresh major version will be fixed in minor updates or if you'll get any minor updates at all. as i said earlier, they're free, but that doesn't mean they will come.

Can they be held responsible if they don't deliver the feature on time?

it should be in the EULA. but i'd imagine not.

[whyterabbyt]

Unable to say simple yes or no on simple question. Noted.

You mean you have an issue with the fact that I pointed out your false dichotomy, or was it answering accurately despite your disingenuousness that bothered you?

[xamido]

neither do you know if the bugs present in fresh major version will be fixed in minor updates or if you'll get any minor updates at all. as i said earlier, they're free, but that doesn't mean they will come.

Think of this scenario. Your subscription ended while your DAW still have critical bugs. One week after that they release bug fixes for it (a minor version update), and you cannot access it since you're not subscribed. You have to pay a full 12 month subscription again to get that fix permanently.

In other DAW, if they fix the bug in their new major version release, they are also selling that major version with lots of new updates. You're not only paying for the bug fix, you'll also be getting new features.

First scenario is an expensive bug fixes with no tangible incentive, cause nobody knows what they will add during the next one year. Second scenario is also expensive bug fixes but you get new stuff in front that kinda justify the upgrade price.

[whyterabbyt]

If you still think this model is good then contemplate the situation if every program, synth, effect and app was on this renting model. Want to edit that track from a few years back? Hmmm, still renting all those VSTs are we or maybe you start getting little popups everywhere of "subscription expired". Maybe some will still work, maybe crippled, or no function at all. Who can say?

You mean they'd be in position of everyone else who's ever sold, switched or deprecated any of their their program, synth, effects or apps?

[xamido]

Unable to say simple yes or no on simple question. Noted.

You mean you have an issue with the fact that I pointed out your false dichotomy, or was it answering accurately despite your disingenuousness that bothered you?

There-there. Relax, i know it's difficult for you to say yes or no for that simple question. Nothing left to say, you 'won' the internet.

[J4R1O]

I believe Cakewalk's goal with their new subscription model is to be "professional" like Avid, but they're not and they will never be. I don't know any studio here in Finland that uses Sonar. Hell, I don't even know ANYONE here who uses Sonar, but me*. Everyone uses Logic, Pro Tools, Reaper or Cubase. There must be a reason for that.

*) Homerecording semi-pro who made a big mistake back in 2008 by believing that Cakewalk is a decent company.

[whyterabbyt]

neither do you know if the bugs present in fresh major version will be fixed in minor updates or if you'll get any minor updates at all. as i said earlier, they're free, but that doesn't mean they will come.

Think of this scenario. Your subscription ended while your DAW still have critical bugs. One week after that they release bug fixes for it (a minor version update), and you cannot access it since you're not subscribed. You have to pay a full 12 month subscription again to get that fix.

Comparison : Your sold version is replaced while your DAW still has critical bugs. One week after that they release bug fixes for the new version (a minor version update), and you cannot access it since youd idnt buy it. You have to buy the new version to get that fix.

Difference : Effect is the same.

In other DAW, if they fix the bug in their new major version release, they are also selling that major version with lots of new updates. You're not only paying for the bug fix, you'll also be getting new features.

Comparison : In the subscription DAW, if they fix the bug in the next subscription version, over the course of the subsequent 12 months to that they are also adding new updates. You're not only paying for the bug fix, you'll also be getting new features.

Difference : Effect is the same.

[whyterabbyt]

Unable to say simple yes or no on simple question. Noted.

You mean you have an issue with the fact that I pointed out your false dichotomy, or was it answering accurately despite your disingenuousness that bothered you?

There-there. Relax, i know it's difficult for you to say yes or no for that simple question. Nothing left to say, you 'won' the internet.

Not sure about the internet, but I sure won the 'guess where xamido is going with this' competition.

Looking forward to your coninued ad hominems on the back of that.

[Burillo]

Think of this scenario. Your subscription ended while your DAW still have critical bugs. One week after that they release bug fixes for it (a minor version update), and you cannot access it since you're not subscribed. You have to pay a full 12 month subscription again to get that fix permanently.

you keep referring to this scenario as if it were guaranteed to happen and the only possible scenario which things can follow. now think of this scenario: you bought the DAW, found a bug, developers acknowledged the bug, but it was fixed only in a next major version. what now?

In other DAW, if they fix the bug in their new major version release, they are also selling that major version with lots of new updates. You're not only paying for the bug fix, you'll also be getting new features.

the subscription model for Sonar essentially does away with "major versions", whatever they develop, you get. there are no "major versions" any more. so yes, you'll get your features, and your bug fixes - and all that for the same price you paid earlier to get only promised bug fixes (in the form of minor updates). if we're speaking theoretically (of which you're so fond of), it seems to me that the subscription is actually a better deal. but you like to switch from theoretical to practical whenever it suits you, right?

First scenario is an expensive bug fixes with no tangible incentive, cause nobody knows what they will add during the next one year. Second scenario is also expensive bug fixes but you get new stuff in front that kinda justify the upgrade price.

yes, but you get those features essentially for free. remember, when you start your subscription, you've only paid like 50 bucks for the full version of Sonar! so by the end of the year, you not only get *current* version of Sonar (current meaning whatever was current when you started the subscription), but also whatever new features and fixes they throw in in the mean time. you seem to miss this important fact - that you get the full Sonar almost for free when you start out.