Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[LawrenceF]

17 pages and no cats?

[xamido]

Now, same question like before.

Are you okay with cakewalk new subscription model? Will you support this business model?

[Burillo]

Now, same question like before.

woah, hold on a sec. are you evading the questions now?

Are you okay with cakewalk new subscription model?

indifferent. i'm not their customer. never have been, probably never will.

Will you support this business model?

nope.

there, i answered your two questions. now, can you answer mine?

[Jace-BeOS]

From what i'm reading of the commentary here, it sounds to me like their marketing sucks and could be simplified easily:

They should market this the same way Renoise markets their "free upgrades for one whole version number". Buy at v14.4, get free updates till v15.4.

Dump the subscription nonsense and do the above, and everything would be fine. But no, big corporate entities can't operate straight-forwardly.

[xamido]

is it ever longer for Cakewalk under the old policy?

YES.

The following software products are supported over the phone and via email by Cakewalk:
SONAR X3 Producer, SONAR X3 Studio and SONAR X3
SONAR X2 Producer, SONAR X2 Studio, and SONAR X2 Essential
Dimension Pro
Rapture
Z3TA+ 2

How old is rapture and dimension pro already?

Compare it to the new one

Will I still get tech support if I'm not an active SONAR Member?

Technical support is available for active memberships only. If you pay upfront, you'll receive phone and email technical support for a full year after your purchase while your SONAR Membership is active. If you pay monthly, phone and email technical support will be available as long as you have an active membership. If you cancel and renew your membership at any time, technical support will be available again when your membership is renewed.

They have basically change their previous support policy to a new one that's not customer friendly. 12 Months... really?

what if a feature you wanted, was developed and released during your subscription period? under old policy, you'd have to pay for a new version, with subscription you get it for free. see? i can play this game too. now can we stop with pointless hypotheticals?

Those new features still hypothetical right?

let's say you're being theoretical and assume that you will get your bug fixed with free minor updates. OK, but then let's be theoretical to the end, and assume that under subscription model, both bugs will be fixed and features will be added. so it seems to me that in theory, subscription model wins.

This is a company that have bad reputation with bug fixes. My initial reasoning is based on their track record.

[LawrenceF]

From what I gather, there are no Sonar "versions" anymore so that won't work. It's just "Sonar" going forward, not Sonar v6 or 7 or anything else like that.

The only thing kinda like versions will be the product tiers, from lowest to highest. While many may disagree with the new path (not sure I would buy into it, maybe, maybe not, dunno) they actually are being pretty straight forward about what it is. The relative confusion about it all seems more to be with individual people, not anything they're doing or the way they describe it.

[do_androids_dream]

you keep missing the point. subscription is basically full version cost, spread out to 12 months. it's even reinforced in that they also allow purchasing full version straight away and get 12 months of support with that. so current version of Sonar is the justification for the subscription price. you're paying for your license in 12 installments. whatever you get on top of that, is just a bonus.

Yes, that's exactly how I read it. It's effectively, pretty much, an interest free credit plan spread over 12 months - advantages to that are obvious for people who can't afford the outright payment. There are still no in-depth details about updates/bug fix release's etc. so I really don't see why so many are getting wound up about things they still don't know much about. The best thing to do is to just see how things pan out over the next few months - we will know by then whether it's a 'good' deal or not.

Edit - one thing is for sure though - the subscription model IS going to be the way forward for many, many software companies - not just music related. There will be mistakes made and, hopefully, lessons learnt by the companies who want us to buy their products. If there are significant problems I'm sure they will be rectified (I'm optimistic and hopeful!) if they want people to use their product.

[LawrenceF]

an interest free credit plan

Well, it's not interest free if you end up paying a little more. The "little more" is the interest.

It would be interest free if both things cost exactly the same, but obviously paying month by month costs a tiny bit more. Not sure if that small difference is enough incentive to always pay it fully up front though.

[Burillo]

is it ever longer for Cakewalk under the old policy?

YES.

The following software products are supported over the phone and via email by Cakewalk:
SONAR X3 Producer, SONAR X3 Studio and SONAR X3
SONAR X2 Producer, SONAR X2 Studio, and SONAR X2 Essential
Dimension Pro
Rapture
Z3TA+ 2

How old is rapture and dimension pro already?

They have basically change their previous support policy to a new one that's not customer friendly. 12 Months... really?

OK, that's about the first legitimate argument against this new policy that i've heard. credit where credit is due.

what if a feature you wanted, was developed and released during your subscription period? under old policy, you'd have to pay for a new version, with subscription you get it for free. see? i can play this game too. now can we stop with pointless hypotheticals?

Those new features still hypothetical right?

...except i have already addressed this point:

Those extra feature during subscription sounds good, but they are all hypothetical until their actual release.

so are free minor updates under old model. your point?

so again, your point?

let's say you're being theoretical and assume that you will get your bug fixed with free minor updates. OK, but then let's be theoretical to the end, and assume that under subscription model, both bugs will be fixed and features will be added. so it seems to me that in theory, subscription model wins.

This is a company that have bad reputation with bug fixes. My initial reasoning is based on their track record.

...except i already addressed this point:

let's say we're being realistic. lots of bugs get fixed by major version releases only, some of them aren't fixed at all. nothing would change with the subscription model. so in practice neither model is better.

to summarize, subscription is theoretically better, and roughly equivalent in practice. again, your point?

so again, your point?

your initial reasoning is also flawed, since you talk theoretical when it suits your argument, and go back to "track record" where it doesn't.

also, still hoping for your reply to this:

are you still oblivious to the fact that you get a current version of sonar by paying in 12 installments, and get free fixes and updates for a year since your subscription started? are you still going to pretend that what you're paying for is some promised future development, and just assume that you're entitled to getting current version of Sonar for free?

[do_androids_dream]

an interest free credit plan

Well, it's not interest free if you end up paying a little more. The "little more" is the interest.

It would be interest free if both things cost exactly the same, but obviously paying month by month costs a tiny bit more.

That's why I said 'pretty much' - yes, it's a tad more but still near enough in my book.

[xamido]

are you still oblivious to the fact that you get a current version of sonar by paying in 12 installments, and get free fixes and updates for a year since your subscription started? are you still going to pretend that what you're paying for is some promised future development, and just assume that you're entitled to getting current version of Sonar for free?

Yes, you will get that update and fixes.

My issue is this new business model will be PITA in reality. Sometime when these company release new feature, things will break. And if your subscription ended before the release of bug fixes for that, you're not exactly getting free updates right? You cannot use that update since the bug fixes is only available if you subscribe again.

There's no guarantee that the new features will be usable for you after all.

Other DAW major version upgrade will at least guarantee any bug fixes for those new features is available for you for free.

[arkmabat]

Wait they still support Dimension?! Darn thing always force closes on me.

[Burillo]

are you still oblivious to the fact that you get a current version of sonar by paying in 12 installments, and get free fixes and updates for a year since your subscription started? are you still going to pretend that what you're paying for is some promised future development, and just assume that you're entitled to getting current version of Sonar for free?

Yes, you will get that update and fixes.

My issue is this new business model will be PITA in reality.

as if the old one wasn't? you obviously aren't happy with Cakewalk under the old policy, so what would change under the new one?

Sometime when these company release new feature, things will break. And if your subscription ended before the release of bug fixes for that, you're not exactly getting free updates right? You cannot use that update since the bug fixes is only available if you subscribe again.

or you can downgrade to a previous version. they actually mention this in the FAQ. so nothing of value was lost, really. i repeat, you're essentially paying for current version of Sonar (current as in what was available at the time you subscribed), anything on top of that is a bonus that you're not entitled to and no one provides any guarantees. just like with any other software. so, those "free updates" may or may not be, but you still have to pay for Sonar itself. which is what you do when you subscribe.

There's no guarantee that the new features will be usable for you after all.

since there was no guarantee you would get them in the first place, this argument is kinda moot.

Other DAW major version upgrade will at least guarantee any bug fixes for those new features is available for you for free.

we've been over this. they guarantee that they will be available for you for free if they come, but they don't guarantee that they're going to release them in the first place. also, again, subscription model also guarantees that fixes will come. if you are to make theoretical arguments against subscription model, you'd have to accept theoretical arguments *for* subscription model as well. if you're intellectually honest, that is, and are not just bashing Cakewalk because they did something you don't like.

[xamido]

we've been over this. they guarantee that they will be available for you for free if they come, but they don't guarantee that they're going to release them in the first place. also, again, subscription model also guarantees that fixes will come. if you are to make theoretical arguments against subscription model, you'd have to accept theoretical arguments *for* subscription model as well. if you're intellectually honest, that is, and are not just bashing Cakewalk because they did something you don't like.

But only during duration of the subscription.

If you get new feature that's still buggy at the end of your subscription then you know the only way to get bug fix is to subscribe again.

In other DAW if you upgrade to new version and the new feature happen to be buggy, you know that this company will try their hardest to make it stable and it's available freely for you.

Cakewalk have basically create extra incentive for customer to subscribe. Good for their business. But it leave bitter taste for me.

At the end of the day it's about which business model that i support.

I'm not saying subscription is without benefit, i'm just giving hypothetical worst case scenario.

And least i have 2 negative point for this system already. First they are cutting support for non subscriber (which is basically their way of saying, pay us for support), second is that they have basically went C/R with this new system.

[She Changed Her Mind]

Everyone knows paying in terms comes not for free. Besides: I buy a product, download the ups as long as the actual software is supported and that's it afaiac. Maybe this helps.