Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[Burillo]

But only during duration of the subscription.

If you get new feature that's still buggy at the end of your subscription then you know the only way to get bug fix is to subscribe again.

since when you started your subscription, this feature was nowhere to be found, this argument is without merit. i stress again, what you pay for with subscription is the version of Sonar you started with, not the one you end up with after your subscription expires. the version you started with, never had this feature, so it never had those bugs. all fair and square.

In other DAW if you upgrade to new version and the new feature happen to be buggy, you know that this company will try their hardest to make it stable and it's available freely for you.

which is why Cakewalk has such a great track record when it comes to these things. right. so is it theoretical argument again?

Cakewalk have basically create extra incentive for customer to subscribe. Good for their business. But it leave bitter taste for me.

At the end of the day it's about which business model that i support.

so, yet again you flip flop from general to the particular, and from theoretical to practical. is it about the business model itself (i.e. a theoretical argument without any connection to Cakewalk)? or is it about Cakewalks' implementation of said business model? if you want to argue business models, we've already established that theoretically, subscription wins in terms of what you get for your money. if you want to argue the practical side of it (i.e. how will it work with Cakewalk), then not only we don't have any basis in reality for our arguments as Cakewalk just announced this new model and there is no track record to speak of yet, but also since Cakewalk wasn't that good under the old model, nothing will likely change in practice, so not much of an argument here either.

I'm not saying subscription is without benefit, i'm just giving hypothetical worst case scenario.

so now you finally admit that just about all your argumentation (bar the point about support period) is hypothetical. great. worst (well, maybe not the worst, but bad nevertheless) case hypothetical scenario - Sonar X4 is released, buggy as hell, no minor updates delivered, Sonar X5 released that fixed bugs that should have been fixed as part of X4 maintenance. what now? why do you think that your hypothetical worst case scenario has more merit than my hypothetical worst case scenario, and why do you keep insisting on this argument?

[flugel45]

....
So, if you pay 18 months and then cease payment, you keep the first 12 months and bug fixes/improvements, but lose the last 6 months. Where am I wrong?

But seriously, who would buy 18 months under subscription?

All these worst-case, imagined scenarios being thrown about, when the reality is the vast majority of users will buy the upfront one-year plan when they can afford it.

IOW, they will upgrade just like they always have with any other DAW in any other year.

[Jace-BeOS]

From what I gather, there are no Sonar "versions" anymore so that won't work. It's just "Sonar" going forward, not Sonar v6 or 7 or anything else like that.

Of course there's still a version number. They have to have a version number to track the product development and do support. By announcing there's no version number publicly, they're forcing a subscription model that benefits THEM instead of something that is SENSIBLE to the customers. These will be self-inflicted wounds, as usual with Cakewalk.

[Jace-BeOS]

The subscription method also allows them to eliminate testing and bug fixing as part of the release cycle, because there's no longer any incentive to get as much right as possible on release date. Not that they had a good track record of doing this to begin with. In fact, this will be much more like what they already do. But the point is that it's anti-consumer. Since people keep justifying everything to each other, people fall in line and go along with it. When will it end? Once the slippery slope has slipped so far that there's no one alive any more that remembers that there used to be this thing called "fit for particular purpose"? Software has no warranty, and that's the core problem with this entire industry. Excuses about software being too complicated to have warranties say more about software's lack of fitness, and less about realistic [expectations].

[vespesian]

The subscription method also allows them to eliminate testing and bug fixing as part of the release cycle, because there's no longer any incentive to get as much right as possible on release date. Not that they had a good track record of doing this to begin with. In fact, this will be much more like what they already do. But the point is that it's anti-consumer. Since people keep justifying everything to each other, people fall in line and go along with it. When will it end? Once the slippery slope has slipped so far that there's no one alive any more that remembers that there used to be this thing called "fit for particular purpose"? Software has no warranty, and that's the core problem with this entire industry. Excuses about software being too complicated to have warranties say more about software's lack of fitness, and less about realistic demands.

Exactly.

[Burillo]

people buy it, meaning they don't care. i'm not a customer of Cakewalk. why any of you are, if they're so bad?

[xamido]

so now you finally admit that just about all your argumentation (bar the point about support period) is hypothetical. great. worst (well, maybe not the worst, but bad nevertheless) case hypothetical scenario - Sonar X4 is released, buggy as hell, no minor updates delivered, Sonar X5 released that fixed bugs that should have been fixed as part of X4 maintenance. what now? why do you think that your hypothetical worst case scenario has more merit than my hypothetical worst case scenario, and why do you keep insisting on this argument?

Well the old version have always had 30 days demo, so it's up to you to decide if a software is buggy. I demoed X1, X2 and decided it's just too buggy. Only on X3 do i find a less buggy DAW. That's why i buy it.

They haven't said anything about the demo with this new subscription method, that's why everything is hypothetical right now.

For me, i believe that the old business model with version number ensure company will try their best to minimize bug on release. Subscription model, not so much.

[Burillo]

Well the old version have always had 30 days demo, so it's up to you to decide if a software is buggy. I demoed X1, X2 and decided it's just too buggy. Only on X3 do i find a less buggy DAW. That's why i buy it.

They haven't said anything about the demo with this new subscription method, that's why everything is hypothetical right now.

i assume they would offer a demo, or, for example, a 14-day (or 30-day) money-back if you decide that Sonar isn't for you. at least in EU i believe they're required by law to offer that. but you're right, until we know the facts about the demo (or lack thereof), we can't argue about it, so this point is moot as well.

For me, i believe that the old business model with version number ensure company will try their best to minimize bug on release. Subscription model, not so much.

which worked so well with Cakewalk.

[Jace-BeOS]

people buy it, meaning they don't care. i'm not a customer of Cakewalk. why any of you are, if they're so bad?

i'm not any more. The years of same old shit from Cakewalk drove me away in anger (just like Windows/PCs). i feel traumatized by having put so much time and money into their product, so i get into these Cakewalk threads anyway

i'm still converting my Sonar projects to Logic and archiving the Sonar originals. So i still use it somewhat. Just not to CREATE anything.

But the topics matter to me on a consumer activist level. And yes, people clearly don't care enough until they're burned. If they're not burned, they continue not caring. If they get burned, it's often they will blame themselves and not the industry's manipulation of their activities. Industry wins.

[xamido]

which worked so well with Cakewalk.

Well i see improvement from X1 up to X3. Still buggy, but improving. But i'm skeptical with subscription method because now they don't need to have fix timeline to fix the bug.

I had high hopes on sonar X4, but seeing this i can definitely say that i'm not going to bother with sonar anymore.

Before, they would fix a lot of these bugs on new version release. Now what's going to be the incentive for them to fix everything fast?

It's just like early access. They have your money already, what's forcing them to finish the game fast? Only 25% of early access game is finished since its inception on steam.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/only-2 ... 0-6423626/

[She Changed Her Mind]

people buy it, meaning they don't care. i'm not a customer of Cakewalk. why any of you are, if they're so bad?

Lol, I'm still interested in what's under the hood. Looks quite good in theory IMHO. Really, if they have good feedback at their next major update I might reconsider.

[Resonant- Serpent]

It's not like they're doing you a favor by offering the subscription. If I upgrade using the subscription, then I end up paying 20% more over the course of a year. By making those people who use the subscription pay more, and those people are most likely to have less money to begin with, leaves a bad taste.

And yeah, Sonar has a bad track record with bugs. While X3 showed effort, there are still some heinous bugs that have made people quit the program. Will this change in the future? Who the hell knows...

Personally, I don't see much in the new upgrade to warrant paying more. Looks like most of the development went into the DRM angle of the release.

Can anyone tell me if these bugs have been adressed?

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Outstanding-I ... 09969.aspx

[Burillo]

But the topics matter to me on a consumer activist level. And yes, people clearly don't care enough until they're burned. If they're not burned, they continue not caring. If they get burned, it's often they will blame themselves and not the industry's manipulation of their activities. Industry wins.

i can understand this sentiment, but this is not the right venue for consumer activism

Well i see improvement from X1 up to X3. Still buggy, but improving. But i'm skeptical with subscription method because now they don't need to have fix timeline to fix the bug.

but they still have subscription base that's going to vanish if they don't fix bugs like they promised to. i would even argue that now more than ever they have to behave because people are now able to quite mid-subscription (without paying them the full sum).

I had high hopes on sonar X4, but seeing this i can definitely say that i'm not going to bother with sonar anymore.

see? you're already exercising your power.

Before, they would fix a lot of these bugs on new version release. Now what's going to be the incentive for them to fix everything fast?

dwindling subscription numbers.

It's just like early access. They have your money already, what's forcing them to finish the game fast? Only 25% of early access game is finished since its inception on steam.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/only-2 ... 0-6423626/

no it's not like early access. it's more like a rolling release model.

[clintmartin]

Here's my plan,
As a very happy Sonar X3e user I'll upgrade to SONAR as soon as it's available. After my year is up I'll decide if Sonar has provided me with a quality stable product and if it's worth it to continue with them. The burden is on them to perform.

[xamido]

no it's not like early access. it's more like a rolling release model.

Looks like a lot of linux and freeware stuff in the example there. The very opposite of paid for subscription model.