Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[LawrenceF]

Not sure if that small difference is enough incentive to always pay it fully up front though.

True. The difference is so small it maybe doesn't even approach being a good incentive to pay it all up front. Maybe just more a much easier (much cheaper) way to cross a threshold that you may not step back over before 12 months because if you do you lose any previous investment. If I was a Sonar user buying into that I'd probably be way more inclined to pay monthly.

Otoh, those tiny extra few dollars multiplied across many thousands of users paying month by month would probably add up pretty well for Cakewalk. But they can't immediately earn the full interest on it like they do when they deposit your $499 lump payment either so... I'll leave all that to the bean counters, the final analysis.

[Burillo]

no it's not like early access. it's more like a rolling release model.

Looks like a lot of linux and freeware stuff in the example there. The very opposite of paid for subscription model.

paid or not doesn't matter. what matters is the development model. Early Access means you get access to an unfinished product, a beta or maybe even an alpha version. rolling release means there are no "versions" of software to speak of, you're always using the current version, and it's the only version that is being developed. i would understand the comparison with Early Access if you cited REAPER as your example (they share pre-release builds with the public), but with Sonar you only get access to what the developer consider to be finished (whether or not it's buggy is irrelevant). so no, it's quite like rolling release model.

[LawrenceF]

There is one thing that kinda (potentially) disturbs me about this plan.

There really should be some reasonable degree of flexibility built into it. I mean, if I'm a Sonar user paying monthly and I've paid like 9 months, and (as is prone to happening randomly) life kinda happens, and I can't make the next couple of payments right now, I really shouldn't be punished for that. I really should be able to re-up within a reasonable time grace period and not just lose the entire value of the 9 months I already paid for. If what I read there is literal, that you must pay a consecutive 12 months or lose your investment.

So I do hope there's a grace period there for "temporarily suspended memberships". Life does happen and if I skip a month for necessary financial reasons, let me get it going again within 35 days or something (?), not just have to start all over again and completely lose my previous investment.

I hope somebody thought of that during the management round tables about all this, when they were setting it up.

[poonna]

Well the old version have always had 30 days demo, so it's up to you to decide if a software is buggy. I demoed X1, X2 and decided it's just too buggy. Only on X3 do i find a less buggy DAW. That's why i buy it.

They haven't said anything about the demo with this new subscription method, that's why everything is hypothetical right now.

According to Seth on the Cakewalk forum:

... we'll have free demos, hopefully available on day one of updates, and updated through the year. We've always wanted to improve our demo availability. ...

So, at least there will be demo, and they intend to keep the demo at pace with any newly released update.

[xamido]

paid or not doesn't matter. what matters is the development model. Early Access means you get access to an unfinished product, a beta or maybe even an alpha version. rolling release means there are no "versions" of software to speak of, you're always using the current version, and it's the only version that is being developed. i would understand the comparison with Early Access if you cited REAPER as your example (they share pre-release builds with the public), but with Sonar you only get access to what the developer consider to be finished (whether or not it's buggy is irrelevant). so no, it's quite like rolling release model.

I mention the money aspect because there must be a reason why the majority of this rolling release software is freeware or open source. Why would cakewalk change their policy to something that's usually used by free software?

And i'd imagine that every update will have less beta testing time because they're forced to commit to release updates every few month to fulfill their promise to the subscriber.

Wouldn't it be easier to prepare multiple new features for one major version update so that they can have longer beta testing? Instead of releasing one every few months?

For me this is a managerial decision. They wanted a business model that ensure money flow every month instead of one time every major release.

[poonna]

I think there are lots of misunderstandings in this thread. Hope there will be some Cakewalk representatives stepping in and settle things.

you pay for a year-long block in advance, or you pay a month at a time over sequential 12-month blocks. if you pay for less than a full 12-month block by the second method, you revert back to how things were before you started paying for that block. ie if you paid monthly for 18 months, you'd lose the previous 6 months of extra stuff, but keep the first year's.

According to Andrew Rossa, you'll actually keep the last version at the end of 18 months. There's no 12-month block. As long as you keep the subscription active for at least 12 months, you'll get to keep whatever you have at the end of your subscription.

You wil continue to keep everything you own after the 12th month. So say you continue to renew for 6 more months and then decide for whatever reason that you don't want to be a member, you'd keep everything you received up until month 18. However, once you opt out, you'd have to do another 12 month membership or pay upfront.

[poonna]

And i'd imagine that every update will have less beta testing time because they're forced to commit to release updates every few month to fulfill their promise to the subscriber.

Wouldn't it be easier to prepare multiple new features for one major version update so that they can have longer beta testing? Instead of releasing one every few months?

For me this is a managerial decision. They wanted a business model that ensure money flow every month instead of one time every major release.

I think this is one of the move towards an Agile development model -- shorter, more frequent release cycles; smaller updates; more immediate user feedbacks; faster response time. Testing should even be easier to handle. Instead of testing a big update with numerous new features (lots of moving parts) at once, testing is now focused on only one or two features at a time.

[fmr]

One thing that's still not clear to me. Users of X3 Producer have a special subscriptio price for the first year. But what about subsequente years? Will the price have to be paid in full? If that's the case, it's no longer like an upgrade, but like buying a new license every year.

[poonna]

One thing that's still not clear to me. Users of X3 Producer have a special subscriptio price for the first year. But what about subsequente years? Will the price have to be paid in full? If that's the case, it's no longer like an upgrade, but like buying a new license every year.

It has already been stated that it will be upgrade pricing for existing customers. Only new customers who never own Sonar will have to pay full price for the new license in the first year, and upgrade price in subsequent months/years.

[poonna]

- double posts -

[Burillo]

I mention the money aspect because there must be a reason why the majority of this rolling release software is freeware or open source.

as global temperatures increase, the number of pirates wandering the seas decrease. does that mean that these two are somehow connected?

Why would cakewalk change their policy to something that's usually used by free software?

why do you think this has something to do with free software? rolling release software is usually developed by international teams, Sonar is developed by an international team too - maybe this is why they chose this model? do you see how little sense this questions makes?

And i'd imagine that every update will have less beta testing time because they're forced to commit to release updates every few month to fulfill their promise to the subscriber.

you're again thinking in terms of "releases". there are no "releases" any more. there are *features*. one feature may be ready, another - not yet. so they release one and not the other. why is that so hard to understand?

Wouldn't it be easier to prepare multiple new features for one major version update so that they can have longer beta testing? Instead of releasing one every few months?

because it's better to develop, test and release one feature than it is to develop multiple features simultaneously and then deal with integration problems?

For me this is a managerial decision. They wanted a business model that ensure money flow every month instead of one time every major release.

it is a managerial decision alright, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its benefits in terms of software development.

[fmr]

One thing that's still not clear to me. Users of X3 Producer have a special subscriptio price for the first year. But what about subsequente years? Will the price have to be paid in full? If that's the case, it's no longer like an upgrade, but like buying a new license every year.

It has already been stated that it will be upgrade pricing for existing customers. Only new customers who never own Sonar will have to pay full price for the new license in the first year, and upgrade price in subsequent months/years.

OK then. It doesn't look that bad. After all, if we are paying every month, we will be more comfortable demanding them to show something, in order to justify the monthly payments. And they will have to deliver something to keep money flowing.

[whyterabbyt]

I think there are lots of misunderstandings in this thread. Hope there will be some Cakewalk representatives stepping in and settle things.

you pay for a year-long block in advance, or you pay a month at a time over sequential 12-month blocks. if you pay for less than a full 12-month block by the second method, you revert back to how things were before you started paying for that block. ie if you paid monthly for 18 months, you'd lose the previous 6 months of extra stuff, but keep the first year's.

According to Andrew Rossa, you'll actually keep the last version at the end of 18 months. There's no 12-month block. As long as you keep the subscription active for at least 12 months, you'll get to keep whatever you have at the end of your subscription.

You wil continue to keep everything you own after the 12th month. So say you continue to renew for 6 more months and then decide for whatever reason that you don't want to be a member, you'd keep everything you received up until month 18. However, once you opt out, you'd have to do another 12 month membership or pay upfront.

That's interesting, cheers.

[LawrenceF]

It's certainly the case that they already have some new stuff lined up and ready to go for that, to distribute all along the way during the first year after this thing goes live, to prove the concept.

It only remains to be seen what those things are and how often they'll show up and of course, how well they actually work. Given how this is all setup I'd (after it goes live) expect to start seeing those things showing up near the end of any given month, the previews of them anyway, things that will show up the next month, to encourage monthly subscribers to keep paying.

It's actually not a bad idea imo, if they can consistently deliver.

It kinda does remove Sonar from any future "Big New Release Splash" like these companies were prone to doing since it'll (I guess) all come out a little at a time and not so much in big marketing gulps.

[sonicpowa]

Very nice new features and workflow enhancements.
The Membership/Subscription model doesn´t bother me as long as there´s the old purchase model also. I think they have made the subscription model about as good as it can be, compared to others (for instance you´ll own the software after a year of payments).