Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[xamido]

as global temperatures increase, the number of pirates wandering the seas decrease. does that mean that these two are somehow connected?

Where's your data on decreasing number of pirates? Or is it just your imaginary statistic like cakewalk imaginary future features?

you're again thinking in terms of "releases". there are no "releases" any more. there are *features*. one feature may be ready, another - not yet. so they release one and not the other. why is that so hard to understand?

Are you denying that there will be less time to beta test?

Of course they will have version something-something to make it easier for user to revert to previous one and keep track. It's just that they don't have major .0 releases with multiple features anymore.

But as far as version goes, they will have the version number in each feature update.

You're just assuming i don't understand.

My issue is with how fast can cakewalk fix the bug after new feature is released. You think rolling new features won't introduce new bugs?

What if the subscription ended before bug fixes? Customer will have to subscribe again for fixes on features that they should have had. It's legal of course, but unethical for me.

The fact that they blatantly ignore support or bug fixes if you're not subscriber is insulting for me.

Their license is NFR. They went the DRM route with steam and cakewalk center. Now, they want you to pay to be able to ask their support in case anything went wrong when you're not subscribed.

How much more anti consumer can you be?

it is a managerial decision alright, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its benefits in terms of software development.

Sure did, but for consumer?

[poonna]

you're again thinking in terms of "releases". there are no "releases" any more. there are *features*. one feature may be ready, another - not yet. so they release one and not the other. why is that so hard to understand?

Are you denying that there will be less time to beta test?

Of course they will have version something-something to make it easier for user to revert to previous one and keep track. It's just that they don't have major .0 releases with multiple features anymore.

But as far as version goes, they will have the version number in each feature update.

You're just assuming i don't understand.

My issue is with how fast can cakewalk fix the bug after new feature is released. You think rolling new features won't introduce new bugs?

It's almost impossible to release a bug-free software, even after extensive internal testing. So, suppose there are on average 5 bugs associated with each new feature. In a big release (the old model), there might be like 10 new features, with 50 bugs. It's going to be hard to discover and respond to all of them at the release time. It will take a lot of time to fix all of them, if that. Some of the bugs that are scheduled to be fixed at a later date will cause the customers affected by them to be upset for a long time.

Now, if the release is with just one feature, and 5 bugs. It's easier to discover the bugs and fix all of them in shorter time period. Customers affected by them don't need to wait as long compared to one big update. It also takes less time to test one feature, compared to 10 features.

This development model is all the rage in software development world today. It's not evil, unless people that handle them do not do it properly.

it is a managerial decision alright, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its benefits in terms of software development.

Sure did, but for consumer?

It's all interrelated. With faster release cycles, user needs could be handled in a more timely manner. Feedbacks are gathered sooner. Response to those feedbacks could be handled more promptly. Customers are happy.

This is happening in the software development world right now. So it's not just theoretical. Now, it's up to Cakewalk whether they can handle this change in direction well enough. If they can, everyone will benefit.

[xamido]

Anyway that's it. I'm just gonna leave this here.

Their license is NFR. They went the DRM route with steam and cakewalk center. Now, they want you to pay to be able to ask their support in case anything went wrong when you're not subscribed.

How much more anti consumer can you be?

This cakewalk shenanigan make me realize how much better and nicer other dev than they are. No point discussing a daw that i will never ever buy anyway.

[Burillo]

as global temperatures increase, the number of pirates wandering the seas decrease. does that mean that these two are somehow connected?

Where's your data on decreasing number of pirates? Or is it just your imaginary statistic like cakewalk imaginary future features?

i assumed you know this.

you're again thinking in terms of "releases". there are no "releases" any more. there are *features*. one feature may be ready, another - not yet. so they release one and not the other. why is that so hard to understand?

Are you denying that there will be less time to beta test?

less time to beta-test a feature? does not follow. if anything, things would be more efficient because the things you've already completed and tested wouldn't sit around and wait for other features to be completed and tested, freeing up testers' time to test things that really need to be tested.

Of course they will have version something-something to make it easier for user to revert to previous one and keep track. It's just that they don't have major .0 releases with multiple features anymore.

But as far as version goes, they will have the version number in each feature update.

of course there technically will be version number to track things, they just won't mean the same thing they did under the old model.

You're just assuming i don't understand.

i don't assume you don't understand. i see that you ignore most of what i say, so i have to repeat things again and again. when your point is refuted, you don't accept that fact, you ignore the refutation, wander around a bit and then come full circle, repeating the same thing as if i never said anything to you. you don't update your world view whenever you encounter something that contradicts it.

My issue is with how fast can cakewalk fix the bug after new feature is released. You think rolling new features won't introduce new bugs?

which is different from the old model how?

What if the subscription ended before bug fixes? Customer will have to subscribe again for fixes on features that they should have had. It's legal of course, but unethical for me.

and here we are slipping into hypotheticals again.

The fact that they blatantly ignore support or bug fixes if you're not subscriber is insulting for me.

they're not ignoring bug fixes. you're just not getting them unless you're subscribed. which is just about what would happen if your bug happens to be fixed in a next major version. you yet again keep assuming that under the old model bugs would get fixed, flip-flopping to a theoretical argument.

Their license is NFR. They went the DRM route with steam and cakewalk center. Now, they want you to pay to be able to ask their support in case anything went wrong when you're not subscribed.

How much more anti consumer can you be?

oh, plenty. just ask AVID. you actually have to pay for the privilege to contact support.

it is a managerial decision alright, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its benefits in terms of software development.

Sure did, but for consumer?

benefits for developers translate into benefits for consumer in most cases. you get your stuff faster, probably better tested - what's not to like?

[xamido]

Giveaway done. Now i have no more cakewalk products. Much happier, now i can leave this thread a happy man.

[whyterabbyt]

Are you denying that there will be less time to beta test?

per feature? yes, im denying that.

in fact if nothing else changes, i'll expect them to have more time.

my issue is with how fast can cakewalk fix the bug after new feature is released. You think rolling new features won't introduce new bugs?

no, that would be impossible. its also completely unrelated to the release schedule.

on the other hand, serial development of features with feature-based-rollouts is likely to have fewer bugs shipped than parallel development of features and version-based rollouts. The fewer changes in your code, the faster you can isolate bugs because you have less potential areas of cause. The fewer simultaneous changes in your code, the fewer bugs you'll have, including eliminating those which are the result of interactions between code in non-related areas.

What if the subscription ended before bug fixes? Customer will have to subscribe again for fixes on features that they should have had.

Wow, you do love to keep repeating that, even though its been answered a couple of dozen times. What happens is still exactly the same as what happens when a new major version comes out before the bug is fixed, same as it was ten pages ago.

[poonna]

Giveaway done. Now i have no more cakewalk products. Much happier, now i can leave this thread a happy man.

They have themselves to prove their worth. If they handle it well, you might actually regret it one day though.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Hi-

Cakewalk Rep here. I come in peace and am willing to answer some questions if people have it. A few things I wanted to address.

Payment/Ownership: When you buy upfront, you own the product outright. This is the same model we have today. With this release we are introducing a bunch of new features. that are available today. What's different is that for the next 12 months you'll also get additional new features, updates, fixes, content, and video tutorials. When we talk about features, we aren't talking about little featurettes but major stuff. In essence for this year you are getting what would have been X4 and X5.

What's also new is monthly payments. We realize that $500 or even $100 can be a lot of money. This is one reason why people pirate software. We'd like to make it more affordable to get into the product. We also don't want to product to vanish when they stop paying for it so we thought 12 months was a fair amount of time. After 12 months, you own the product and ALL the features and updates you received. You can continue paying monthly or opt out. It's up to you.

Why we think this model is good for consumers and Cakewalk: Every customer and potential customer has the right to choose if they want to purchase SONAR. The majority of feedback we have received has been good, and we did a lot of research, focus groups, and surveys. This was well thought out. The fact of the matter is you will never please 100% of the people. This is a fact.

We think this model is good for both the consumer and Cakewalk. There is no doubt that we have to prove this model works. The burden is on us to make this model work. With this release, we have introduced a bunch of cool features and we have some very cool stuff coming soon. I think the value of this update is really amazing considering you are getting what would have been X4 and also X5. So over the course of the next year, it's imperative that we deliver on this promise and that we make our customers happy. Otherwise, at the end of a year, we will have trouble getting customers to renew or buy another 12 months upfront. But if we blow people away and give customers amazing value every month, then we have done our job and we should expect happy customers and a healthy business. We can all sit here and debate what we think will happen but really at the end of the day, our actions will speak the loudest. I feel very confident that we'll deliver more value than any other DAW on the market.

The other reason why this is good is that Cakewalk can focus on a handful of features at a time. And there's not time crunch or pressure to release them on a certain date, we'll release them when they are ready. This is going to make for a better products. We'll also be issuing many more fixes and improvements to the product which will make the experience better. This will also make us way more responsive. We are also hiring (http://www.cakewalk.com/Careers), and will be adding a lot more resources to support this new model.

At the end of the 12 months, you can decide for yourself if you thought you got value out of the investment. And if you decide you want to sit it out right now, that's fine too. You can see the progress from the sidelines and decide later if you want to upgrade or buy. Or if you love the DAW you have now, you can be content and happy, and make music It's up to you.

Support: We offer 12 months of support as part of the membership. Honestly, that's much better than most of are other DAW competitors. I think people need to do a little research. Most competitors offer limited time support and then you have to pay. And depending on the issue, if you call after a year, I don't think we'll be hanging up on you.

I'd be happy to try and answer other people's questions. The best way to find out about SONAR X3 and Cakewalk over the past year or so is to ask people who own the product. There are a few people on this thread that aren't customers, and that just hate on us for whatever reason (I even tried to reach out to some of them to understand their issues). SONAR X3 was a great release. It was the most popular release of the X series and even in the last survey, we got a 95%+ satisfaction rating from customers, which was great. Is their room for improvement? Of course there is and that goes for any product. And that's why we think this new membership model is a step in the right direction. It's a win-win for customers and Cakewalk.

Thanks, for reading.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Hi-

Cakewalk Rep here. I come in peace and am willing to answer some questions if people have it. A few things I wanted to address.

Payment/Ownership: When you buy upfront, you own the product outright. This is the same model we have today. With this release we are introducing a bunch of new features. that are available today. What's different is that for the next 12 months you'll also get additional new features, updates, fixes, content, and video tutorials. When we talk about features, we aren't talking about little featurettes but major stuff. In essence for this year you are getting what would have been X4 and X5.

What's also new is monthly payments. We realize that $500 or even $100 can be a lot of money. This is one reason why people pirate software. We'd like to make it more affordable to get into the product. We also don't want to product to vanish when they stop paying for it so we thought 12 months was a fair amount of time. After 12 months, you own the product and ALL the features and updates you received. You can continue paying monthly or opt out. It's up to you.

Why we think this model is good for consumers and Cakewalk: Every customer and potential customer has the right to choose if they want to purchase SONAR. The majority of feedback we have received has been good, and we did a lot of research, focus groups, and surveys. This was well thought out. The fact of the matter is you will never please 100% of the people. This is a fact.

We think this model is good for both the consumer and Cakewalk. There is no doubt that we have to prove this model works. The burden is on us to make this model work. With this release, we have introduced a bunch of cool features and we have some very cool stuff coming soon. I think the value of this update is really amazing considering you are getting what would have been X4 and also X5. So over the course of the next year, it's imperative that we deliver on this promise and that we make our customers happy. Otherwise, at the end of a year, we will have trouble getting customers to renew or buy another 12 months upfront. But if we blow people away and give customers amazing value every month, then we have done our job and we should expect happy customers and a healthy business. We can all sit here and debate what we think will happen but really at the end of the day, our actions will speak the loudest. I feel very confident that we'll deliver more value than any other DAW on the market.

The other reason why this is good is that Cakewalk can focus on a handful of features at a time. And there's not time crunch or pressure to release them on a certain date, we'll release them when they are ready. This is going to make for a better products. We'll also be issuing many more fixes and improvements to the product which will make the experience better. This will also make us way more responsive. We are also hiring (http://www.cakewalk.com/Careers), and will be adding a lot more resources to support this new model.

At the end of the 12 months, you can decide for yourself if you thought you got value out of the investment. And if you decide you want to sit it out right now, that's fine too. You can see the progress from the sidelines and decide later if you want to upgrade or buy. Or if you love the DAW you have now, you can be content and happy, and make music It's up to you.

Support: We offer 12 months of support as part of the membership. Honestly, that's much better than most of are other DAW competitors. I think people need to do a little research. Most competitors offer limited time support and then you have to pay. And depending on the issue, if you call after a year, I don't think we'll be hanging up on you.

I'd be happy to try and answer other people's questions. The best way to find out about SONAR X3 and Cakewalk over the past year or so is to ask people who own the product. There are a few people on this thread that aren't customers, and that just hate on us for whatever reason (I even tried to reach out to some of them to understand their issues). SONAR X3 was a great release. It was the most popular release of the X series and even in the last survey, we got a 95%+ satisfaction rating from customers, which was great. Is their room for improvement? Of course there is and that goes for any product. And that's why we think this new membership model is a step in the right direction. It's a win-win for customers and Cakewalk.

Thanks, for reading.

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

[whyterabbyt]

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

What's your alternative? Allow someone to pay for one month once every 12 months and get exactly the same benefits as everyone who's paying for a year?

Dont forget, its been established that once you've paid for 12 months, ie paid the full price of the product, then your version should you quit is the most recent version you have.

[anxiousmofo]

Thanks, Andrew. Is it really "available today," though? It doesn't look live on your site yet.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

why, when you've already had people's money (essentially for renting), do you penalise those who don't run the 12-month course ??

if i pay for 7 months, but then don't pay for another 5, why do you remove all the bug-fixes etc and send me back to the previous update ?? you've had 7 months of money from me. more than that, if i ever want to get any further updates, i have to start all over again

nope !! your 12-months is not "fair"

if i pay for 6 months, during which time you fix a large bug that affected me, do you really then take that fix from me ??

What's your alternative? Allow someone to pay for one month once every 12 months and get exactly the same benefits as everyone who's paying for a year?

Dont forget, its been established that once you've paid for 12 months, ie paid the full price of the product, then your version should you quit is the most recent version you have.

to clarify, i am talking about bug-fixes only. i have already said, elsewhere in this thread, that i would not expect the extra additions to stick around past the subscription.

bug-fixes are clearly different. if they suddenly fix some bug that's been plaguing users for years, halfway through your rental cycle, are you really suggesting it is "fair" that that be removed when you stop coughing up your monthly rent ??

they lose nothing from me dropping the subscription. on the contrary, they get 6 months without having to give anything permanent away.

seems like a cross between a protection racket and snakes 'n' ladders

[poonna]

to clarify, i am talking about bug-fixes only. i have already said, elsewhere in this thread, that i would not expect the extra additions to stick around past the subscription.

bug-fixes are clearly different. if they suddenly fix some bug that's been plaguing users for years, halfway through your rental cycle, are you really suggesting it is "fair" that that be removed when you stop coughing up your monthly rent ??

I've never (or perhaps rarely) seen software that lets you install bug fixes and new features separately. Sometimes they are even related to each other. I believe it's quite difficult to properly manage such separation.

[Burillo]

personally, i would consider SONAR if:
1) they do deliver on their promises, and
2) they implement a track model similar to REAPER, i.e. none of this "mono-track, midi-track, bus track, send track" nonsense

if 1) works out, the 2) will be pretty much the only thing that still keeps me on REAPER. SONAR has kept my attention for a long time now, i like many things in SONAR - the GUI, the bundled stuff, the ProChannel, the new vocal alignment feature, ARA integration... but if underneath all of this lies an inflexible core constrained by decades-old ideas, then i simply can't consider SONAR as an alternative. i'm not interested in analog legacy inside a digital DAW.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

to clarify, i am talking about bug-fixes only. i have already said, elsewhere in this thread, that i would not expect the extra additions to stick around past the subscription.

bug-fixes are clearly different. if they suddenly fix some bug that's been plaguing users for years, halfway through your rental cycle, are you really suggesting it is "fair" that that be removed when you stop coughing up your monthly rent ??

I've never (or perhaps rarely) seen software that lets you install bug fixes and new features separately. Sometimes they are even related to each other. I believe it's quite difficult to properly manage such separation.

i'm trying to make the distinction between bugs and additions such as new instruments etc. of course, in various scenarios it would be hard to separate the two, but i think this is where the biggest flaw exists.

again, to clarify, i am talking about things that should always have been working from when they had been introduced

time will tell how happy people will be with such a penalty