Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership

[Burillo]

then what the f**k am i paying for ?? if a bugfix pops up in the 6 months i am subscribed, am i not entitled to it ?? have i not paid towards it ?? why would i lose something that was faulty for the last few full upgrades (before this system was dreamt up), just because i stopped paying for my protection ??

you could say you "own" bugfixes, but since you don't own Sonar, you don't get bugfixes either - you don't own any product these bugfixes are for.

once again, i don't expect to own a full product, nor even the big new additions

how do you propose someone owns bugfixes for Sonar, but not Sonar itself?

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

i'm trying to make the distinction between bugs and additions such as new instruments etc. of course, in various scenarios it would be hard to separate the two, but i think this is where the biggest flaw exists.

again, to clarify, i am talking about things that should always have been working from when they had been introduced

time will tell how happy people will be with such a penalty

It's not that I don't understand your concern. You can probably think about it this way, though. It's like an annual big upgrade. Formerly, you'll have to pay in full up front. Now you have a choice to pay in instalments -- and you need to complete all the instalments to officially own it. You can't just pay 5 instalments and run away with the goods. This applies to anything, not just Sonar.

In the old model, if bug fixes you need happen to be in the next big upgrade, you have no choices but to pay in full to get it. The new model is not really different. You'll still have to pay the full upgrade price to get it if it comes after your version. It's just that now you have a choice to pay in instalments -- and you just have to honour your commitment to complete all the instalments.

On the other hands, after you've paid the full upgrade price, now you can still keep your subscription running, and you'll get your updates and be able to keep them even after you cancel the subscription. Or you could cancel right away after you've paid the full upgrade price. And then wait until there are enough new features that you think are worth it, and do another full upgrade price -- in lump sum or in instalments -- your choice.

I think this is pretty fair.

let's say i have been paying for 7 months, but can't continue to pay. at around the 4-month mark, they somehow managed to fix a bug that has been in every version (that i have owned, and paid in full). are you really suggesting that i should just accept losing that fix; that it is, maybe, just the gamble you take for not paying upfront ??

i see an achilles heel, and i think that cakewalk are going to be dealing with cases of disgruntled customers very regularly

[whyterabbyt]

you seem to be assuming that those who rent will definitely be able to finish their full-term

erm, no, where the hell do you get that from?

, but there would be many reasons why that might not be possible. however, in such a case, the developer has gained all and the customer has lost. snakes 'n' ladders

Well, actually the customer got N months useage of the software for (N/12) the cost of the software.

Ive already asked, but I dont think you answered. What do you think should happen? That people who only pay part of the agreed price get cheaper software?

if there is no contingency in place for this situation (perhaps, in this case a whole department dedicated to dealing with legitimacy claims for why people have backed out and should be given a refund), then i can see it coming back to slap them in the face...deservedly so

erm, why?

how does a company who got stiffed on the full price of a purchase suddenly have to deliver the full goods?

[poonna]

Many software companies want to jump on the subscription idea because it's a guaranteed revenue stream. Instead of having to come up with really good updates and extras that motivate people to buy an upgrade, they just tie them into the rent model instead. Then they can relax a bit and bait-talk endlessly about all the great things coming sometime soon - so you stay subscribed. A little fear of what you'll lose if you stop renting is also vital to the formula. It's an ugly emotional model that generates and relies on customer anxiety.

But it works OK so long as not too many companies in your field do the same. Then it very quickly gets crowded and people need to make choices about how much they want to pay out in constant rent. It's very different psychology to a single purchase.

Companies typically move to this model when sales are flat or declining, they have income crisis, or the software has become so mature that all that can be added is useless bloatware that results in fewer upgrades each year. People "camp" at a good version and quite rightly see no reason to pay more.

It's to combat this that companies want to force you to pay rent.

If you still think this model is good then contemplate the situation if every program, synth, effect and app was on this renting model. Want to edit that track from a few years back? Hmmm, still renting all those VSTs are we or maybe you start getting little popups everywhere of "subscription expired". Maybe some will still work, maybe crippled, or no function at all. Who can say?

So I hope this little experiment in revenue-generation fails miserably. It's a bad precedent for the industry.

Hear, hear, Spirit, very succinctly put, I totally agree. We ALL need to boycott any company who tries to rent us software.

And presumably with this model, there will no way in hell to resell what you have paid for either.

Except that, in the Cakewalk case, you actually own it if you decide to pay in full or subscribe for 12 consecutive months.

[whyterabbyt]

then what the f**k am i paying for ?? if a bugfix pops up in the 6 months i am subscribed, am i not entitled to it ??

yes. unless you dont finish paying for the product.

once again, i don't expect to own a full product

if you only pay for 6 months you wont own one. but you seem to expect to.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

To be clear, if you choose monthly and don't pay for 12 months, it reverts to demo mode. We are offering people a way to pay for the product over 12 months. There is still the traditional upfront payment which allows you to purchase the product and keep everything you own, no monthly payment to deal with. That's what our competitors do right now. Show me a company that allows you to buy a product and only pay for half of it and still keep it.

that answers the "demo" question - it'll be available, presumably always the most recent version so that people can test it fully.

one other point was grace periods. say, someone is a month behind on payments due to various circumstances. would that cause an immediate cancellation, or some leniency would be allowed?

We put in a 14 day grace period. So you won't lose your work if you card expired or was maxed out. Also, you'll be able to open existing projects that were done before you reverted back to demo mode. You just won't be able to save or export them again.

[whyterabbyt]

let's say i have been paying for 7 months, but can't continue to pay. at around the 4-month mark, they somehow managed to fix a bug that has been in every version (that i have owned, and paid in full). are you really suggesting that i should just accept losing that fix; that it is, maybe, just the gamble you take for not paying upfront ??

well, if you stopped paying at 7 months, you dont own the product because you didnt finish paying for it. so no, you're not entitled to keep the bugfixes for the product you havent finished paying for because you're not entitled to keep using the product you haven't finished paying for.

[poonna]

let's say i have been paying for 7 months, but can't continue to pay. at around the 4-month mark, they somehow managed to fix a bug that has been in every version (that i have owned, and paid in full). are you really suggesting that i should just accept losing that fix; that it is, maybe, just the gamble you take for not paying upfront ??

i see an achilles heel, and i think that cakewalk are going to be dealing with cases of disgruntled customers very regularly

It's just like everything else, isn't it?

You can buy a car and pay for it in full. Or you can decide to take a risk and pay in instalments. If you can't complete all the instalments, they take the car back. You get to use it for the time you've paid for it, but they aren't gonna refund you for not completing the agreed payment.

The gist of it is that, there's a price to something (even the bug fixes you want). You can buy it and pay in full, or in instalments. The old model doesn't offer that, and you'll have to pay in full, or wait until you have enough money and buy later, all the while living with the bugs you have.

[Breval]

Except that, in the Cakewalk case, you actually own it if you decide to pay in full or subscribe for 12 consecutive months.

Does that mean you can sell it?
if not you own nothing.

[Burillo]

We put in a 14 day grace period. So you won't lose your work if you card expired or was maxed out. Also, you'll be able to open existing projects that were done before you reverted back to demo mode. You just won't be able to save or export them again.

OK. so, is revamping track routing and tracks system planned, or it's ruled out for the foreseeable future? in case you never used REAPER, i'll explain: in REAPER, there are no concepts of different tracks. a track is a track, and it can happily accept mono, stereo, 64-channel audio and MIDI in any combination. similarly, each track can route up to 64 channels of audio and MIDI, all at the same time. each track can send audio to other tracks, each track can be a bus. in other words, the signal flow is completely free and is not constrained by types of tracks.

is something like that even considered for future versions of Sonar?

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

Many software companies want to jump on the subscription idea because it's a guaranteed revenue stream. Instead of having to come up with really good updates and extras that motivate people to buy an upgrade, they just tie them into the rent model instead. Then they can relax a bit and bait-talk endlessly about all the great things coming sometime soon - so you stay subscribed. A little fear of what you'll lose if you stop renting is also vital to the formula. It's an ugly emotional model that generates and relies on customer anxiety.

But it works OK so long as not too many companies in your field do the same. Then it very quickly gets crowded and people need to make choices about how much they want to pay out in constant rent. It's very different psychology to a single purchase.

Companies typically move to this model when sales are flat or declining, they have income crisis, or the software has become so mature that all that can be added is useless bloatware that results in fewer upgrades each year. People "camp" at a good version and quite rightly see no reason to pay more.

It's to combat this that companies want to force you to pay rent.

If you still think this model is good then contemplate the situation if every program, synth, effect and app was on this renting model. Want to edit that track from a few years back? Hmmm, still renting all those VSTs are we or maybe you start getting little popups everywhere of "subscription expired". Maybe some will still work, maybe crippled, or no function at all. Who can say?

So I hope this little experiment in revenue-generation fails miserably. It's a bad precedent for the industry.

Hear, hear, Spirit, very succinctly put, I totally agree. We ALL need to boycott any company who tries to rent us software.

And presumably with this model, there will no way in hell to resell what you have paid for either.

We are not renting software. Please read the FAQ:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Membership

You can still buy the product upfront like you do TODAY. As a bonus, you'll get 12 months of additional features, content, videos, and fixes. You can also pay for the product over the course of 12 months. Again, in both scenarios, you own the product 100% after 12 months. This isn't subscription. This is ownership. What a few people here are suggesting is that they should be able to pay for 1/3 or 1/2 of the product and then get to keep it 100%. That doesn't seem very fair.

[poonna]

Except that, in the Cakewalk case, you actually own it if you decide to pay in full or subscribe for 12 consecutive months.

Does that mean you can sell it?
if not you own nothing.

We were talking about the subscription model, weren't we? NFR is another topic for another discussion, I suppose. Owning it in this sense is the same as owning it before the subscription model was in place -- that is, owning the NFR license. It has been like that, with or without the subscription model.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

once again, i don't expect to own a full product, nor even the big new additions

how do you propose someone owns bugfixes for Sonar, but not Sonar itself?

keep up...clearly, i meant (if you've been following), that i wouldn't expect to own all of the new additions that will eventually become the next 'full' product. i don't expect to subscribe for 3 months and 'own' ad drums, nor some new sampler, or a new delay

IF i have been a sonar user for a long time, having paid for many iterations, and a legacy bug gets fixed during my subscription, i think it totally unreasonable that that should then be removed...especially seeing as it would be the only thing to show for the 6 months of money that they had from me

on the surface, it seems like a helping hand for those who can't afford to pay upfront, but the problem with people who can't afford things, is that normally 12 months doesn't make things easier. this is setup so that any default is felt by the customer only.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

We put in a 14 day grace period. So you won't lose your work if you card expired or was maxed out. Also, you'll be able to open existing projects that were done before you reverted back to demo mode. You just won't be able to save or export them again.

OK. so, is revamping track routing and tracks system planned, or it's ruled out for the foreseeable future? in case you never used REAPER, i'll explain: in REAPER, there are no concepts of different tracks. a track is a track, and it can happily accept mono, stereo, 64-channel audio and MIDI in any combination. similarly, each track can route up to 64 channels of audio and MIDI, all at the same time. each track can send audio to other tracks, each track can be a bus. in other words, the signal flow is completely free and is not constrained by types of tracks.

is something like that even considered for future versions of Sonar?

I'll definitely share this with development team. We will be releasing information on new features and updates as part of this program so there will be some visibility on what's coming down the road. Right now we are working on a new Drum Replacer, which will be a big feature for Platinum customers. More to come.

[Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]]

once again, i don't expect to own a full product, nor even the big new additions

how do you propose someone owns bugfixes for Sonar, but not Sonar itself?

keep up...clearly, i meant (if you've been following), that i wouldn't expect to own all of the new additions that will eventually become the next 'full' product. i don't expect to subscribe for 3 months and 'own' ad drums, nor some new sampler, or a new delay

IF i have been a sonar user for a long time, having paid for many iterations, and a legacy bug gets fixed during my subscription, i think it totally unreasonable that that should then be removed...especially seeing as it would be the only thing to show for the 6 months of money that they had from me

on the surface, it seems like a helping hand for those who can't afford to pay upfront, but the problem with people who can't afford things, is that normally 12 months doesn't make things easier. this is setup so that any default is felt by the customer only.

So let me get this straight, every other DAW company out there makes you pay upfront for your software. And then you own it outright. We do the same EXACT thing. But now we are offering even more flexibility by breaking up the payments for people, and somehow we are now worse? If you don't like this monthly option, you could just say, I want to buy it outright, and guess what, we let you do that as well. I don't get it.

But let me shop at your store and buy a product. Ship it to me and i'll pay you every month for 12 months. But if I decide to stop after 6, I am still keeping it. Cool?