KVR Audio

antithesist · Post by **antithesist** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:45 pm

Compyfox:

Yeah, I agree... though the Forte Suite is just great the way it is and could/should be rereleased that way.

That went into Midnight, but there's a lot more to the suite (Gamble's work).

D2/D3 have been around for almost 20 years now, and the comp has been a semi-secret-weapon amongst Pro Tools users since well before there was native PT (nubus TDM, etc.).

I think maybe Frank "Cool Stuff Labs" Filapanits worked these while he was directly employed by Digi, but they're not listed on his site like his contract work.

Anyway, get a Scarlett Solo for less than $100 and count half that as paying for the new Reds.

That's what I'll do if I don't go Clarett (maybe the big one).

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:56 pm

The thing is... I don't need another USB/Firewire/Thunderbolt ADC just to get the RED as freebie. And 299USD after the most recent comments (EQ not great, over 10+yo code being revived, etc) are really a bit steep.

If Focusrite would bundle the plugins with the OctoPre series, then I would jump on it. Because I'm still looking for an affordable/good sounding 8i/o ADAT module. And Focusrite is one of the rare (remaining) people that offers something with up to 96kHz and ADAT.

Maybe I can afford the plugins at some point. But as of this moment, I really don't see a reason if I pretty much have "similar" with the Midnight Comp and FG-RED.

antithesist · Post by **antithesist** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:59 pm

Right on... you could resell just the interface maybe?

Come on, really you don't need another little laptop interface?

I think that Solo is $85 at JRR, though I suppose you'd do better after shipping over there... just a thought.

Yeah, you probably don't need or even want the EQ, but if the comp is the same as the D3, it's pretty special and different than Dave's Forte/Midnight models or SL8, even though they're all supposedly based on about the same thing (ISA/Red).

We have VBC and Midnight, too (the excellent David Tichauer at Focusrite actually comped my partner Midnight after he complained about the Forte Suite being discontinued).

I do like SL8's stuff, but often find a preference for plug-ins that are "less accurate" models in terms of distortions, for both CPU load and lacking distortion modeling... or even that they just work better on the particular audio being "clean."

I do try to stop at three models of a particular piece of hardware, though.

I mean, more than that would be kind of obsessive now, wouldn't it? (already up to 5 or so SSL bus comps, for example, between my partner and me... but that's his fault, not to mention bundles and freebies).

But yeah, they should give this "new" Red stuff away with products like you mentioned, too.

Lastly, don't underestimate old code, just because it's old.

poshook · Post by **poshook** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:54 pm

frequency of silence in DEMO mode makes potencial customers objects of scorn...

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:59 pm

antithesist wrote:Right on... you could resell just the interface maybe?

Reselling the interface would also mean, that the buyer wants everything bundled. Including the plugins.

antithesist wrote:Come on, really you don't need another little laptop interface?

My laptop is decommissioned (single core 600MHz), but I still have a MBox2 if I really need something portable. I do speculate with the ZOOM H6 for the rare outdoor recordings I have to handle once in a while. Definitely more low-profile, until companies finally decide to offer connectivity to Android tablets while still getting access to 96kHz.

antithesist wrote:Yeah, you probably don't need or even want the EQ, but if the comp is the same as the D3, it's pretty special and different than Dave's Forte/Midnight models or SL8, even though they're all supposedly based on about the same thing (ISA/Red).

But wasn't Dave already involved during the early plugin days of Focusrite, incl. the ProTools ports?

antithesist wrote:I do like SL8's stuff, but often find a preference for plug-ins that are "less accurate" models in terms of distortions, for both CPU load and lacking distortion modeling... or even that they just work better on the particular audio being "clean."

Same here... in busy projects, it's nice to have "analog emulations", but overdoing it is only adding more harm than good. But in this particular case, it's a bit special... I'll get to that in a minute.

antithesist wrote:I mean, more than that would be kind of obsessive now, wouldn't it? (already up to 5 or so SSL bus comps, for example, between my partner and me... but that's his fault, not to mention bundles and freebies).

Tell me about it. I have so many EQ's and Comps, yet I still catch myself going back to the same tools over and over. I'm not thinking of using hardware, and therefore "amount limited" tools. I just use what's quick and easy to work with.

And that happens to be the Midnight Suite (ISA) as of late, or my go-to Neve EQ (Nomad Factory) unless I need quick character (then TDL or VoS) or have to do restoration stuff (I am currently trusting AirEQ on that behalf).

antithesist wrote:Lastly, don't underestimate old code, just because it's old.

I definitely don't underestimate that. But let's assume this new RED bundle is merely a revival of the ProTools code, but ported into the "modern realm" (VST/AU/AAX - 64bit). Then I find the price really a bit steep. Even if the original hardware was about 1500EUR/street, but the TDM version (which was/is usually twice as expensive as "native" or "RTAS") of D2/D3 is 299USD as well. Even the initially 700+EUR sold NEVE Portico Bundle fell down to 399EUR. And the Midnight Suite also drastically fell in price over the years.

I am not complaining - just wondering. So in the end, those that don't have/use (selected) Focusrite hardware, but want a revival of the RED series in plugin form, need to dig deep in terms of cash. Well, at least you don't pay 600bucks for the TDM version, while the "non DSP" variant was half the price. So that is an improvement for sure.

Still, I rather stick to the ISA 110/130 for the time being (aka Midnight Suite - pity that there was never a gate plugin, and pity that the Midnight EQ doesn't come with a preamp mode or phase inversion).

Then again - there is hope to see the FORTE Suite ported at some point (lower priced however). With a bigger GUI, improved sound and what have you. Then I have the 110/130 including Gate/Expander/Deesser and hopefully the ISA preamp.

I can dream, no?

DaveGamble · Post by **DaveGamble** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:00 pm

Some information from me:

1. I don't know what DSP is used in these new plugins. I didn't write them.
2. The compressor in the ISA130 is VERY slightly different to the Red 3, so you might be hearing that.
3. There's no real measurable distortion from those units. There's nothing to model. They're designed to have unbelievably low THD+N figures. In modelling them, there was nothing to do for distortion. They even have incredibly high headroom so you can't even drive them. A lot of people seem to think that analogue designers in pro-audio deliberately impart distortion - well, in the British lineages, avoidance of distortion at all costs has always been the philosophy.
4. I did Forte Suite. d2 and d3 were the work of my mentor Paul Neyrinck at Digidesign. We started a 430 plugin together, which got scrapped, and then later I did models of the ISA 110 and 130 which became the Forte suite.
5. To the best of my knowledge, the Midnight Suite uses the Forte suite compressor and EQ code.
6. Accurate preamp modelling *requires* some hardware component due to the (very important) effects of reflected impedance.
7. I'd love to resurrect the Forte Suite. I'm not sure it's a good-fit DMGAudio product, and I suspect Focusrite have their own plans in this direction.
8. In the decade since I left, I suspect Focusrite have acquired some new DSP engineers. I certainly heard as much in conversation. So don't discount the possibility that this is an all-new model. I honestly don't know.

Dave.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:32 pm

Paul Neyrinck is your mentor... you definitely learn something new every day.

I still remember our shop-talk, Dave. Very informative, and this was the reason why I got the Midnight Suite after all.

Pity that you could never "finish" or "enhance" it. By that I mean, make a full suite rather than only going for a compressor or EQ. I'd love to have the same GUI as the actual hardware, including the same limitations (IMO, think locked frequencies for low/high shelf and LP/HP). And the Gate/Expander/De-esser module (which was partially available with the Scarlett Suite - which in turn is a very run-down-code version - and according to the Scarlett plugin info page, the compressor was an OPTO, not VCA).

The aspect of "preamp modeling" sure is interesting. Which makes me wonder why the Slate creation did opt for a "saturation heavy" port, while you now say that there was barely any saturation, not to mention very low THD+N readouts for the hardware. Which in turn could clear why the "modeling" was left out with the plugin creations.

Else, yes - impedance and therefore fluctuating signal running into both the EQ and compressor would be an important thing. To my understanding, this would not only shift the worklevel, but also introduce slight changes (pre-empahsis) in terms of EQ. What we would more commonly know as "character of a preamp".

Then again, I found the SoS arctile on the ISA 110 from June 2000.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun00/a ... usrite.htm

Just a summary:

According to the frequency-response plot, the mic amp is flat up to around 20kHz after which the response actually rises before falling away again above 50kHz. The mic amp noise figure is -123dB EIN (Equivalent Input Noise) for a 150(omega) source, and in use, the ISA 110 preamp is extremely quiet at all operating levels. It also boasts a THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) figure of 0.0008 percent, which is orders of magnitude better than most designs. Even the mic input can handle input levels of up to +26dBu without needing a pad, which also makes for a better noise performance when working with hotter signals.

These are indeed dream values!

So yeah... Still a bit "meh" on the financial side for the "RED" suite. But there is hope that Focusrite will revive the ISA (Forte) suite again.

Thanks again for the short insight, Dave.

bill45 · Post by **bill45** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:45 pm

Does 8i6 Qualify for the free versions? The 6i6 does, but I don't see
the 6i6 listed. I can't find anything about these on the site.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:53 pm

Since I have a focusrite, must look into this.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:33 am

Anyone else having problems with the focusrite site? I am a registered Saffire user, but when I sign it it's blank on my account page. It won't even let me download saffire software or the midnight stuff which I have already installed previously. I was excited to try the RED stuff.

antithesist · Post by **antithesist** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:27 am

The master descends.

Thanks, Dave (and compyfox)... good post(s).

Aiynzahev · Post by **Aiynzahev** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:52 am

I'm guessing you can't even demo these if you don't have their interface. I can't see how to get a hold of them.

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:56 am

Kang wrote:Anyone else having problems with the focusrite site? I am a registered Saffire user, but when I sign it it's blank on my account page. It won't even let me download saffire software or the midnight stuff which I have already installed previously. I was excited to try the RED stuff.

Mine is blank.

bill45 · Post by **bill45** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:06 am

Mine too, all I see is two little all boxes.

Kang · Post by **Kang** » Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:34 am

Figured it out. Mess around with the country option at the top left. You will have to sign in every time you change. For me, US had nothing, but UK or Global had all my stuff. Go to the downloads link on the device that qualifies and you'll see it. Thank you Focusrite, classy move.

Focusrite ports RED 2 and 3 modules (without Dave Gamble?)