One Synth Challenge #71: Hive by u-he (Jasinski wins! 2+ hours of epic music)

[doctorbob]

I'm nervous now but we should know the results in just a couple of hours.

Not nervous at all ... if I come in the middle I'll be very happy given the calibre of the tracks submitted!

dB

[ontrackp]

I mean, you can work on a track endlessly if you want to (in the end it's a matter of taste, and sometimes it doesn't make a track better to work more and more hours on it; like Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean", Quincy Jones made about 80 (!) different mixes of it, and in the end it was mix number 2, hahaha!)

This also reminds me of the folklore around the Animals track "House of the Rising Sun", recorded in the days when a take of the full band was a take, probably only 4 tape tracks, editing was done by splicing the tape etc ... some mixing/mastering to 2 track and then to the record pressing plant! I believe they went into the studio, did 4 or 5 takes ... and you guessed it, take number 1 was the one of the record. It does have that great live rawness to it - maybe later takes didn't have that feel and of course, probably bum notes here and there

I agree, the track is good as it is, yes you can fine tune for ever. The number of times I have gone back to an early mix or take of a track and thought, "Hmmm ... the later ones are not much better, if at all - what was I thinking?", but we all do it and try to be perfectionists. There are always things you can change for better or worse. The problem is that once you change one thing, you then go on to change another in that new context ... this constant re-iteration leads to some refinement, but you do have to ask the questions "has it really been worth it?", "could I have done it differently", "is it REALLY better?".

Just some thoughts while we are waiting for the results of this mammoth challenge!

dB

I started in this industry back in the day when the only way to produce music was to track live players to tape, and I can recall countless times that we would do a quick reference mix of a song at the end of the day, and it would have a certain freshness and energy that the final version, after all the eq'ing, compression and mix fine tuning wouldn't have. Knowing when to stop is a tough decision. I worked for a guy many years ago who had a great saying in the studio -- "Don't improve it". Knowing when to say that is a great skill!

[bftucker]

I am wondering what U-He thinks of what you have accomplished with their newest synth. I would like to know two things: their favorites among those songs which used it the way they envisioned when they created it and those songs which used it in a way that surprised them.

My thanks to all who participated. Great songs, great sound design, and great OSC "spirit."

[wagtunes]

I mean, you can work on a track endlessly if you want to (in the end it's a matter of taste, and sometimes it doesn't make a track better to work more and more hours on it; like Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean", Quincy Jones made about 80 (!) different mixes of it, and in the end it was mix number 2, hahaha!)

This also reminds me of the folklore around the Animals track "House of the Rising Sun", recorded in the days when a take of the full band was a take, probably only 4 tape tracks, editing was done by splicing the tape etc ... some mixing/mastering to 2 track and then to the record pressing plant! I believe they went into the studio, did 4 or 5 takes ... and you guessed it, take number 1 was the one of the record. It does have that great live rawness to it - maybe later takes didn't have that feel and of course, probably bum notes here and there

I agree, the track is good as it is, yes you can fine tune for ever. The number of times I have gone back to an early mix or take of a track and thought, "Hmmm ... the later ones are not much better, if at all - what was I thinking?", but we all do it and try to be perfectionists. There are always things you can change for better or worse. The problem is that once you change one thing, you then go on to change another in that new context ... this constant re-iteration leads to some refinement, but you do have to ask the questions "has it really been worth it?", "could I have done it differently", "is it REALLY better?".

Just some thoughts while we are waiting for the results of this mammoth challenge!

dB

I started in this industry back in the day when the only way to produce music was to track live players to tape, and I can recall countless times that we would do a quick reference mix of a song at the end of the day, and it would have a certain freshness and energy that the final version, after all the eq'ing, compression and mix fine tuning wouldn't have. Knowing when to stop is a tough decision. I worked for a guy many years ago who had a great saying in the studio -- "Don't improve it". Knowing when to say that is a great skill!

I remember those days well. My first setup consisted of a Teac A3440 4 channel recorder, 6 channel mixer and a few keyboards including an early Moog Sonic Six.

I don't really think I'd enjoy going back to those days at all. LOL.

[Markus808]

I am wondering what U-He thinks of what you have accomplished with their newest synth. I would like to know two things: their favorites among those songs which used it the way they envisioned when they created it and those songs which used it in a way that surprised them.

My thanks to all who participated. Great songs, great sound design, and great OSC "spirit."

I guess it's only that Urs didn't want to interfere with the competition and voting. If I was the inventor and programmer of Hive, it would be quite hard for me not to give any comments on all the GREAT OSC 71 tracks and what people made out of my "baby".

I guess and hope that Urs will give his replies to this fantastic OSC when time is due!

Markus808

BTW just right now it's a bit like waiting for the christmas presents then in childhood, ain't it?! (results, results!)

[ontrackp]

He wagtunes -- I remember the A3440's -- great machines! I started with a Kawai SX210, an Oberheim DX drum machine and a tascam 4 channel cassette portastudio. My first midi synth was a DX7, and I used a program called Midi-Paint with a Jambox for sync on a Mac Plus. Those were the good old days, but I agree with not wanting to go back. I think though, the learning we got in the "destructive" world of having to make decisions about what to keep and what to record over, and having to do live mixes, was very valuable. Imagine if today's young producers coming up on all computer production were told they had to work without an "undo" button for a day....

[wagtunes]

He wagtunes -- I remember the A3440's -- great machines! I started with a Kawai SX210, an Oberheim DX drum machine and a tascam 4 channel cassette portastudio. My first midi synth was a DX7, and I used a program called Midi-Paint with a Jambox for sync on a Mac Plus. Those were the good old days, but I agree with not wanting to go back. I think though, the learning we got in the "destructive" world of having to make decisions about what to keep and what to record over, and having to do live mixes, was very valuable. Imagine if today's young producers coming up on all computer production were told they had to work without an "undo" button for a day....

I agree. It was a great education. Limited number of tracks also forced you to make hard decisions on arrangements because you didn't want to do too much bouncing.

I think my first MIDI synth was also the DX7. Before that, it was all analog stuff including Moog, ARP and Yamaha. I spent a fortune on synths.

[jasinski]

He wagtunes -- I remember the A3440's -- great machines! I started with a Kawai SX210, an Oberheim DX drum machine and a tascam 4 channel cassette portastudio. My first midi synth was a DX7, and I used a program called Midi-Paint with a Jambox for sync on a Mac Plus.

I remember Midi-Paint!
I too had a Tascam 4 track cassette recorder. I had some Yamaha drum machine, my guitar, an Alesis Wedge reverb, and a microphone. My first synth though was actually a sampler. The Ensoniq EPS 16+, I knew that thing better than any synth I've ever owned since.

Memories...

[doctorbob]

I STILL have my Tascam 244 all transistor portastudio! First 2 track machine was an AKAI crossfield thing - big and very heavy, and a smaller 2 track as well. I bought an early Dolby B system - Kellar DB1 - it had independent channels so I could use it to bounce tracks WITH Dolby UP and DOWN between the machines.

Then they brought out THAT Tascam 4 track - couldn't afford that! My mate bought Keith Emerson's Tascam when he sold of oodles off his kit!

Wouldn't go back, but the training in those days was invaluable! Did lots of live mixing for various bands, folk groups etc. When a channel goes down live, you need your thinking cap on pronto.

Made my own synth in the early 70's. First real ones were a CZ-1000 and DX-11.

Oh, memories .... if only I could remember them ... sigh ...

dB

[Parduz]

Geez!
What age have you, guys? -edit- This is really just a question, not kidding you in any way
I'm born in 1970 and, while being an amateur... no, a hobbyst musician does'nt give me enough experience to know how it was, when i was 20 (so, 1990) i was playing with a group and, having a dozen of songs, we paid for a professionally made demo in a very small studio.
There was an Atari Mega STE with Cubase 2.0 (my GF -now my wife- immediatle after the recording bought me the exact same machine and software, which i still have), a Mac i don't remember (they worked with the Atari with us), a "big" Mixer (at least, i've never seen something so large again) and a whole wall of rack stuffs. If my memory is still good enough, i think our masters were made on DATs tapes, so no digital recondings on Computers but still no cutting/glue on tapes.

And i entered this contest "against" PROs like you all? LOL.

-edit2-
On a side note, i dream on how much i could learn by having one of my compositions mixed/mastered by each of you.... i find mixing/mastering a thing so "alien" to me.... i think i don't have even the ears able to catch what it should be done, go figure.

[ontrackp]

This is fun -- hearing from other "old-timers".

Considering how much I spent on synths during the 70's, 80's and 90's, $ 99 for Hive is a real bargain!

From the portastudio I graduated to a Tascam 1/2" 8 track and a Fostex 2 trk w/ center track timecode to record mixes. When Southworth went under I switched to Vision, then Studio Vision, which were both great programs. I produced tons of songs with the live instruments and vocals on the 8 track tape (one track was used for time code) and all the synths playing live into the mix.

We have it really easy today!

[wagtunes]

This is fun -- hearing from other "old-timers".

Considering how much I spent on synths during the 70's, 80's and 90's, $ 99 for Hive is a real bargain!

From the portastudio I graduated to a Tascam 1/2" 8 track and a Fostex 2 trk w/ center track timecode to record mixes. When Southworth went under I switched to Vision, then Studio Vision, which were both great programs. I produced tons of songs with the live instruments and vocals on the 8 track tape (one track was used for time code) and all the synths playing live into the mix.

We have it really easy today!

Yeah, and then there's this. $600 for a duophonic Moog. $1200 for a string machine. $500 for a one osc ARP AXXE. I won't even tell you what my Yamaha synth cost nor how heavy it was.

This is part of why I don't get the nostalgia for some of this stuff. I mean the truth is, some of the early synths sounded like crap. But you made do with what was available.

I still have my Yamaha CP 30 electronic piano that I use to stock things on top of. It's a great piece of furniture. In fact, one of my Yamaha studio monitors is on top of it.

Nostalgia is great. But I prefer what we have today.

[Examigan]

A bit of my history:
The first notation I step entered into a computer was on my brother's Atari 400 using a program (on a cartridge!) called Music Composer. It took many hours to put in much of Wakeman's Six Wives solo from my Yes songbook. It was sort of a nightmare to enter each note on that, it was bad!
I played drums all through the 80's and through the mid 90s, too.
In the late 80s, I bought an Atari ST and Master Tracks Pro. Great program! I also bought a DX-21 and CZ-101.
Eventually, I switched to a PC around 1995, and finally in 2004 I bought Sonar 4.

Times sure have changed!

EDIT: Forgot to mention I also had a Portastudio back then too.

[LuxLucid]

And i entered this contest "against" PROs like you all? LOL.

-edit2-
On a side note, i dream on how much i could learn by having one of my compositions mixed/mastered by each of you.... i find mixing/mastering a thing so "alien" to me.... i think i don't have even the ears able to catch what it should be done, go figure.

Yeah, I'm humbled to compete against such renowned producers/artists. I feel the limitations imposed are a good equalizer and an excellent way to see how others work their sound design, mixing, etc.

I felt the same about mixing for a long time. I've been producing and mixing for over 5 years, constantly researching and experimenting, and I still learn new things every day or refute something I thought was concrete... it was only when I stopped doubting myself and putting my 'ego' aside (hard to explain, but it's like putting yourself aside and being purely a vessel for the music) that I finally am happier with my productions. I believe it was this video in particular that really started that spark:

I believe somewhere in there he brings up ego regarding producing. Also a great demonstration of modern technology, this guy is lightning quick and very unique c:

[Markus808]

Wow, so cool to hear that there are some more old schoolers around here!

I started with DX7, SC Prophet-5 (bought it used for 900 german marks in 1992, unbelievable now), Wersi Digital Grand Piano, Boss DR-550 drum machine and Tascam 4-track portastudio (felt like George Martin & The Beatles with all that ping pong bouncing!), plus a Stratocaster for doing guitar stuff. Later then Atari ST for midi recording. What a fantastic time for learning to record music!

Cheers
Markus808