KVR Audio

fese · Post by **fese** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:51 pm

oddgoo wrote:Congratulations to the winners!

As my first OSC, I'm really happy with the whole process and my placing. I was a bit shocked that we could actually see what everyone scored everyone else, it's brutal but it's great!

We can??? I didn't know that. And I am not sure I want to know...

fese · Post by **fese** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:58 pm

doctorbob wrote:
Me too! But now retired coz I'm basically an old fart! Was Chairman of Eurographics UK Chapter for 6 years (see Eurographics.org), programmer since the mid 60's (early assembly languages, through Fortrans, Algols, Modulas up to Prolog, Poplog, Lisp (oh those "megabrackets"). Taught database technologies, computer graphics (opengl - best fun though writing code for a Dec GT-40). Built and ran a M$ Compute Cluster (mainly running parallel Matlab programs!!!). Ran some early high performance networking stuff on UKLight (surround sound recording and playback between York and Edinburgh). Built and ran mixed windows and Linux Condor clusters - that was fun.

Crashed my first machine in 1966!

dB

Wow, seriously impressed here! I go my first computer 30 years later (at age 22). Would like to be retired now and then, too...

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:46 pm

Final Prize Distribution:
1. Richard Semper - Diversion (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1#p6076351)
2. Z.prime - Skip (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9#p6076359)
3. Fese - Skip (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0#p6077130)
4. Parduz - Synthmaster (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3#p6077383)
5. Animehaus - Euterpe XL (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4#p6077424)

bjporter · Post by **bjporter** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:48 pm

wagtunes wrote:Okay, I listened to the two top tracks (which by the way were my two favorites) with headphones and I get it.

What the tracks have in common though they are so different.

1) Slick sound. Very "commercial" sounding.

2) Pro production. Excellent stereo placing of instruments. Levels perfect.

3) Arrangement not static. Many changes throughout but not obviously so. More like a woven tapestry with things coming in and going out and then coming in again.

4) More riff and mood based than melody based. Melody is almost secondary to the overall frame so nothing really distracts from the rest of what's going on. So you get the whole picture and all the little nuances. In other words, nothing sticks out like a sore thumb. All the parts fit, like a perfect jigsaw puzzle.

5) Musical structure is solid. No weak parts. Enough changes so that it's not monotonous but still consistent enough so that it's not too chaotic. This is a very difficult line to walk and these guys do it masterfully.

Now, I listen to MY track and I hear one background "pattern" going through the whole thing with just a lot of different lead synths playing different melodies. It gives the illusion of "variety" but in reality, it's monotonous as hell. There are no highs and lows. It just starts and stops and in spite of its "noisiness" it's dull as hell. It's a kind of glitz with no real substance. I won't even touch on the poor production where everything is pretty much dead center.

In short, in comparison, it's pretty bad if I'm going to be totally honest. I need to take a totally different approach if I'm going to even have a prayer of finishing in the top 50% let alone near the top 5.

Whether or not I have the talent to pull this off, that's another matter. Richard's drum beats in his track are sick. I absolutely do not have that kind of rhythm in me being an old white guy from the 60s. LOL. But I'll give it my best shot.

The winners deserved to win and I pretty much deserved what I got if I'm going to be completely honest.

The track, in comparison, really blew.

This was an awesome read.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:31 pm

bjporter wrote:
wagtunes wrote:Okay, I listened to the two top tracks (which by the way were my two favorites) with headphones and I get it.

What the tracks have in common though they are so different.

1) Slick sound. Very "commercial" sounding.

2) Pro production. Excellent stereo placing of instruments. Levels perfect.

3) Arrangement not static. Many changes throughout but not obviously so. More like a woven tapestry with things coming in and going out and then coming in again.

4) More riff and mood based than melody based. Melody is almost secondary to the overall frame so nothing really distracts from the rest of what's going on. So you get the whole picture and all the little nuances. In other words, nothing sticks out like a sore thumb. All the parts fit, like a perfect jigsaw puzzle.

5) Musical structure is solid. No weak parts. Enough changes so that it's not monotonous but still consistent enough so that it's not too chaotic. This is a very difficult line to walk and these guys do it masterfully.

Now, I listen to MY track and I hear one background "pattern" going through the whole thing with just a lot of different lead synths playing different melodies. It gives the illusion of "variety" but in reality, it's monotonous as hell. There are no highs and lows. It just starts and stops and in spite of its "noisiness" it's dull as hell. It's a kind of glitz with no real substance. I won't even touch on the poor production where everything is pretty much dead center.

In short, in comparison, it's pretty bad if I'm going to be totally honest. I need to take a totally different approach if I'm going to even have a prayer of finishing in the top 50% let alone near the top 5.

Whether or not I have the talent to pull this off, that's another matter. Richard's drum beats in his track are sick. I absolutely do not have that kind of rhythm in me being an old white guy from the 60s. LOL. But I'll give it my best shot.

The winners deserved to win and I pretty much deserved what I got if I'm going to be completely honest.

The track, in comparison, really blew.
This was an awesome read.

Thanks BJ. It came from the heart and a lot of soul searching.

Sometimes you have to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and admit where you're lacking. If I can do that, man up, and do what I need to do to improve (I think I can) then you just might hear some surprises in the coming months.

z.prime · Post by **z.prime** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:44 pm

wagtunes wrote:Sometimes you have to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and admit where you're lacking.

Love that attitude! It's exactly what you need to improve on anything in life, really. And remember lots of us are happy to help.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:03 pm

z.prime wrote:
wagtunes wrote:Sometimes you have to take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror and admit where you're lacking.
Love that attitude! It's exactly what you need to improve on anything in life, really. And remember lots of us are happy to help.

Curious. What was the "light bulb" moment for you, or did it just come from years and years of hard work and beating your head against a wall?

Mojo42 · Post by **Mojo42** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:12 pm

fese wrote:
oddgoo wrote:Congratulations to the winners!

As my first OSC, I'm really happy with the whole process and my placing. I was a bit shocked that we could actually see what everyone scored everyone else, it's brutal but it's great!
We can??? I didn't know that. And I am not sure I want to know...

I also didn`t know that we can see, because where to hell??? (Link???)

I`m thinking same way like oddgoo, I would like to see what everyone scored everyone. I like it brutal

bibz1st · Post by **bibz1st** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:41 pm

Its the Tab at the bottom of the Google Docs

Mojo42 · Post by **Mojo42** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:35 pm

bibz1st wrote:Its the Tab at the bottom of the Google Docs

Ah thanks

I found it.
@fese: I guess you can dare a look

@all: You all had been very generous to me

Don`t know what to say....really. Maybe simply: Thanks

z.prime · Post by **z.prime** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:44 pm

wagtunes wrote:Curious. What was the "light bulb" moment for you

I suppose I've had a few about different areas of production along the way but if anything, the biggest was probably the first OSC I entered. I finished in the middle somewhere, a lot lower than my expectations probably were at the time... and I realized these guys were making some awesome music which put mine to shame. The production levels were so much better than mine. The sounds they got out of these synths were incredible by comparison to what I achieved. The music itself was much more interesting than mine. Everything was better than I was able to accomplish. I don't remember if I was disparaged by this - probably to some degree. But rather than dwell on it I realized the only way for me to improve was to keep doing it - learn the techniques people used to get different sounds, to get a better mix. The a-ha bit was simply a realignment with reality that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

It definitely took a while to get some of the techniques down (and it _is_ more challenging with free plugins). Without getting too detailed, I had produced music for a while but screwed around for a long time not doing it and then really only got into preset flipping and piddling around, rarely completing tracks... rarely getting past the 8 bar loop of something that I thought sounded cool, really. I eventually got a few things done and probably had some people I knew say things like "that sounds good" about the music I was making, spewing pleasantries rather than truth.

But I just want to make "awesome" music... can't really explain it... it's just in my DNA, I guess. It's really an unhealthy obsession. I say "awesome" because obviously it will only appeal to certain people. My ideal reaction at the moment is: "oh my God what did he do?". So I just kept doing OSC to iterate and learn more each time around, trying to focus on different aspects along the way: sometimes sound design, sometimes mixing, sometimes mastering. I can honestly say I am nowhere near the production capabilities I want to be, but the effort I've put in has made tremendous improvements. As with anything, practice makes perfect... anyone would improve using this method!

I think one of the biggest hurdles is just being able to critically assess your own music: grounding yourself in reality and maintaining humility. Once you get to the point that you understand and are fine with lots of people not liking it for whatever reason, then you can more easily try to find out why or what to improve rather than getting defensive or hurt. For example, I know most people don't like the loud obnoxious noise I come up with... but really, I'm totally fine with that. My real reason isn't to win the contest but rather figure out the techniques to achieve sounds like the "pros" that I like.

For example, this year my goal is to learn to play the piano in some reasonable manner. I can make some nice sounds with it, but really don't have a firm grasp on the chords I'm playing and the number of keys I can play in is very limited (maybe 4, poorly?) and my accuracy is very poor and I'm very slow at it. And I've been running low on creativity lately (lots of different things going on in my life)... But still I'm trying to figure out how to make better compositions... need to start somewhere. All the skills you use to make tracks in the OSC are valuable if you intend on doing electronic music. The sound design is great to know - it makes some things much faster than flipping through presets or samples. The mixing and mastering techniques obviously can translate to about any genre, even. And general musical composition and such can influence you anywhere.

Anyway, too much rambling, sorry... as has been said, not sure what your motives may be, but if you are interested in getting better one of the best ways is just entering the OSC every month (or perhaps other competitions). It forces you to finish. It gives you a deadline. For me, this is invaluable. And to top it off, the OSC is a great, helpful community though. Well, all except me, I just ramble on.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:55 pm

z.prime wrote:
wagtunes wrote:Curious. What was the "light bulb" moment for you
I suppose I've had a few about different areas of production along the way but if anything, the biggest was probably the first OSC I entered. I finished in the middle somewhere, a lot lower than my expectations probably were at the time... and I realized these guys were making some awesome music which put mine to shame. The production levels were so much better than mine. The sounds they got out of these synths were incredible by comparison to what I achieved. The music itself was much more interesting than mine. Everything was better than I was able to accomplish. I don't remember if I was disparaged by this - probably to some degree. But rather than dwell on it I realized the only way for me to improve was to keep doing it - learn the techniques people used to get different sounds, to get a better mix. The a-ha bit was simply a realignment with reality that I wouldn't have had otherwise.

It definitely took a while to get some of the techniques down (and it _is_ more challenging with free plugins). Without getting too detailed, I had produced music for a while but screwed around for a long time not doing it and then really only got into preset flipping and piddling around, rarely completing tracks... rarely getting past the 8 bar loop of something that I thought sounded cool, really. I eventually got a few things done and probably had some people I knew say things like "that sounds good" about the music I was making, spewing pleasantries rather than truth.

But I just want to make "awesome" music... can't really explain it... it's just in my DNA, I guess. It's really an unhealthy obsession. I say "awesome" because obviously it will only appeal to certain people. My ideal reaction at the moment is: "oh my God what did he do?". So I just kept doing OSC to iterate and learn more each time around, trying to focus on different aspects along the way: sometimes sound design, sometimes mixing, sometimes mastering. I can honestly say I am nowhere near the production capabilities I want to be, but the effort I've put in has made tremendous improvements. As with anything, practice makes perfect... anyone would improve using this method!

I think one of the biggest hurdles is just being able to critically assess your own music: grounding yourself in reality and maintaining humility. Once you get to the point that you understand and are fine with lots of people not liking it for whatever reason, then you can more easily try to find out why or what to improve rather than getting defensive or hurt. For example, I know most people don't like the loud obnoxious noise I come up with... but really, I'm totally fine with that. My real reason isn't to win the contest but rather figure out the techniques to achieve sounds like the "pros" that I like.

For example, this year my goal is to learn to play the piano in some reasonable manner. I can make some nice sounds with it, but really don't have a firm grasp on the chords I'm playing and the number of keys I can play in is very limited (maybe 4, poorly?) and my accuracy is very poor and I'm very slow at it. And I've been running low on creativity lately (lots of different things going on in my life)... But still I'm trying to figure out how to make better compositions... need to start somewhere. All the skills you use to make tracks in the OSC are valuable if you intend on doing electronic music. The sound design is great to know - it makes some things much faster than flipping through presets or samples. The mixing and mastering techniques obviously can translate to about any genre, even. And general musical composition and such can influence you anywhere.

Anyway, too much rambling, sorry... as has been said, not sure what your motives may be, but if you are interested in getting better one of the best ways is just entering the OSC every month (or perhaps other competitions). It forces you to finish. It gives you a deadline. For me, this is invaluable. And to top it off, the OSC is a great, helpful community though. Well, all except me, I just ramble on.

Thanks for this. I'm going to try a completely different approach to composition and production for April's OSC. This month is too late for me to redo the track I did. And besides, I want to see if it at least does better than last month. I think the track is better so it should do better. From that point I'll know where to go.

Mojo42 · Post by **Mojo42** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:49 am

@zprime: Thank you for speaking so openly to us. One very important point became very clear here:
You are very ambitious, demanding to yourself, diligent, honesty to yourself and obsessive. This all are exactly the qualities one need to have for being successful in something. I say this by own experiance. Once I was exactly same way. I had successes. It worked. But the end of the story was: You don`t get just friends if you are successful. The enemies came on the same road.

I don`t know how old you are, but I`m too old in the meantime for walking the same road again.

A lot of people wish to be successful, but no one considers about that this also has a prize. It cost`s something. Think on Michael Jackson for example. What a horrible life!!! What an end! Marilyn Monroe, Lady Diana, the next drama and so on. I don`t say that the way of success always has to lead to a big drama in the end, but it is worth to consider about at least if one has actually considered all consequences of success. There is a dark side too of success as it is for everthing else in this life.

Nowadays I`m more calm, more relaxed. If I have got success in something, good, if I have not also good. I don`t stress myself anymore.

I`m still making effort to improve, but I do this more for making the music I like and not for reaching the radio top ten one day or for winning an OSC one day. If it will happen I could hardly do something against, but I don`t force myself in this direction.

I recognized that I have simply more fun in doing what I do and also better results (!!!!) when I don`t try with all my might to be successful in something.

The wish to be successful can already be the greatest barrier that hinders one to be successful. That has all to do with psychology and the way creativity works. One is most creative when one is completely relaxed.

So if anyone is interested into my advice then it is: Relax

To relax doesn`t mean to be lazy as an old dog, or being sloppy in doing what one is doing. It just means to have an inner distance to the final result. If you know what I mean. In chinese philosophy this wisdom is expressed in the image of to sow without thinking about the harvest. According chinese philosphy this is the ideal state of mind for getting a well harvest.

It works because no negative thinking, no fear, no sorrow, no expectation disturbs you in doing your job as good as you can. And more is anyway not possible

Cheers
Yvonne

animehaus · Post by **animehaus** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:27 pm

RichardSemper wrote:Thanks You always say the nicest things! And I look forward to the day (hopefully not too long) when I can congratulate you for a top win! Incidentally, your hat sounds are playing throughout the winning track this time, and were probably what tipped the balance

Yep, I might reach to the top spot of the these days, huh? Tough job, though.

Or I could keep creating nice hat sounds, this way infiltrating on more and more winning tracks.

esteband · Post by **esteband** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:56 pm

animehaus wrote:Or I could keep creating nice hat sounds

This actually reminded me of one of the high points of my work on this competition.

I ended up making my own hi hat patch for my track. It's nothing special, but I discovered a new technique that I think I'll use in the future. Rather than using two separate patches for closed and open, I just wrote 1 patch with a high sustain level and short decay & release times. To make the closed hi hats, I just painted in some really short notes, and for each hit of the open hi hat, I extended the note length a little longer. This way, I could program closed and open sounds on the same channel, with the same instance of eclipsis. Not only was it a little more efficient on CPU, but I also found it was so much more expressive in terms of groove. I could get a really nice push/pull feeling by selectively extending some open hi hat notes longer than others.

I used to achieve a similar effect by automating the decay times of my samples, but since i couldn't use samples this time... Plus I think that editing the MIDI notes not only makes it easier, but it gives you a visual cue that corresponds to the sound. IE you can actually hear what that longer-looking note sounds like.

Granted, there was still some "meat" missing from the sound of the Hi Hat, but I think if I used a synth with better envelopes and more ability to route velocity to various parameters, i could create a very tough sounding hi hat track.

-Steve

One Synth Challenge #72: Eclipsis by VSTZONE (Richard Semper Wins!)