Considering purchase of MPS/Synfire

[gnosis123]

Your final statement though puzzles me, "But I already feel much freer than with the clip-based approach of Live/Bitwig, which expects and encourages music to fit in cubes, N bars long."

Are the containers in Synfire not the same thing? Cubes (or more like rectangles) for fitting N bars long?

The software is really overly complex. I mean, it looks great to do what it does, but it could be MUCH more simplified. Actually, it looks like it has been simplified a bit since its conception. Or maybe now I get it

I was referring to Synfire's "phrases", which are independent of bar-length. In fact, they can be independent of particular notes, letting you apply different rhythms, scales, and harmonies to the original phrase. That mirrors how I would compose at an instrument, but eliminates all the grunt work and just lets you focus on the musical result. It's great to take a phrase or lick or rhythm or chord change, then expand and develop it from any angle of music theory - harmony, rhythm, note-manipulation (retrograde, inversion), etc.

Yes, the "containers" are N bars long. But that feels right rather than confining, since I think of them as whole sections of the piece. They can be copied, aliased, etc, which I really like when working with the top level structure. That stage, for me, always comes after I've already got some motif or pattern and have figured out how to develop it - usually the hardest part.

I am still in the learning phase, so I won't be able to say whether it is too complex until I really understand it all . Device definition does seem needlessly baroque, but I'm just starting with it. On the other hand, my impression is that nothing in the program is arbitrary. I may not agree in the end with the reason for feature X, but I feel pretty sure that there will at least *be* a reason.

[elassi]

Yep, I used HN2 that way (virtual Midi cables) all the time. But there was the need for more when it came to manipulating the score.

I mentioned the arp for being known to a lot of users. In fact I refer to several kind of Midi tools like Thesys (my #1 gear for basslines), MidiShaper or the new Nora. No idea what made me sound like I'm using SF as an Arp-player... Just wanted to make clear that you have to keep those things in your DAW - same applies to any mixing task. Or vocals, read: audio files. Just forget to try it in SF.

That's where my core questions about eventually upgrading to SF chimed in. I wanted to speed up the whole process and get the most possible things done in SF. Still, even with the drones, it's a multi-step procedure.

But all in all I won't whine. I tested SF twice (Andre allowed another 30 days of demoing upon my request) and I get enough advantages out of it.

[gnosis123]

in practice here the Synfire hell breaks loose. I won't elaborate on that because my opinion might be influenced by personal workflow and the synths I'm using (i.e. you can't include Omnisphere in this General-Midi-dictatorship of SF because of the lack of program change control in Omni. Furthermore you have no luck with midi-arps and the like because there's no kind of routing inside SF whatsoever).

Not sure I get what you're saying. Since Omnisphere does work in Synfire, is it that you're trying to drive it with a MIDI note-generator or change its presets on the fly?

I haven't tried prototyping using Thesys and the like, but want to soon. I agree that it would be nicer to do it all in SF, but am hoping that using 'drones' is not too hairy. I guess you could generate the arp in your DAW, record the MIDI and copy it over to SF, but that is somewhat clumsy, especially when the rest of the system is there to help you try out stuff quickly and be spontaneous.

[elassi]

Not sure I get what you're saying. Since Omnisphere does work in Synfire, is it that you're trying to drive it with a MIDI note-generator or change its presets on the fly?

SF wants to categorize ANY sound (otherwise it threatens you with a red alarm text if you don't...). But this is not possible with Omni. You can't - and neither SF can't - tell what sound is loaded in Omni. But despite that you can of course use Omni in SF. It just won't cooperate with its internal instrument categorization.

I agree that it would be nicer to do it all in SF, but am hoping that using 'drones' is not too hairy. I guess you could generate the arp in your DAW, record the MIDI and copy it over to SF, but that is somewhat clumsy, especially when the rest of the system is there to help you try out stuff quickly and be spontaneous.

Exactly. Bringing 'ready-made' arps into SF is basically nothing else than using phrases with its library (which is a great thing, no question). But a heap of work and static, too. I can tell because I've ported every Catanya phrase into HN2... No, the thing is that one wants to use an arp or a similar tool every now and then without compromise. But as I said: you can still run it in the DAW by receiving chord data from SF and do the processing in the DAW.

To sum it up: Just wanted to let interested people know that there's no routing (neither audio nor midi) inside SF and used the good ol' arp device as an example...

[gnosis123]

SF wants to categorize ANY sound (otherwise it threatens you with a red alarm text if you don't...). But this is not possible with Omni. You can't - and neither SF can't - tell what sound is loaded in Omni..

I have Omni's "Glorious Guitars" preset sitting in SF Pro here, categorized as "E Guitar Clean". Maybe your device definition is incomplete?

Bringing 'ready-made' arps into SF is basically nothing else than using phrases with its library (which is a great thing, no question). But a heap of work and static, too. I can tell because I've ported every Catanya phrase into HN2...

Kind of like sharpening your tools instead of getting to use them. On the other hand, you can do a lot of copy-pasting in 15 minutes... Then you have all those goodies in your library forevermore.

No, the thing is that one wants to use an arp or a similar tool every now and then without compromise. But as I said: you can still run it in the DAW by receiving chord data from SF and do the processing in the DAW.

Still wondering about this. Since you can input phrases from a MIDI keyboard, I would think SF would accept MIDI from other sources as well. Might require MidiPipe or the moral equivalent, but it might (oughta) work...

[elassi]

No, the thing is that one wants to use an arp or a similar tool every now and then without compromise. But as I said: you can still run it in the DAW by receiving chord data from SF and do the processing in the DAW.

Still wondering about this. Since you can input phrases from a MIDI keyboard, I would think SF would accept MIDI from other sources as well. Might require MidiPipe or the moral equivalent, but it might (oughta) work...

You seem to misunderstand the task.

It does not make sense at all to route midi date (here: the chords) out of SF, process it in the DAW (here: arping) and then route it back into SF to feed a synth.

----

Re the Omni-preset: So how do you select the Omni-guitar in a new arrangement? Double-click on the instrument-definition? In my case it'd open Omni but with the default preset. But I'm no expert to this. I gave up after days and days trying to work this out.

[gnosis123]

Since you can input phrases from a MIDI keyboard, I would think SF would accept MIDI from other sources as well. Might require MidiPipe or the moral equivalent, but it might (oughta) work...

You seem to misunderstand the task.

It does not make sense at all to route midi date (here: the chords) out of SF, process it in the DAW (here: arping) and then route it back into SF to feed a synth.

Er, you seem to have misunderstood my misunderstanding . I was thinking of having, say, Thesys run standalone and send its MIDI output straight into SF. Then play with the Midi data there. No DAW involved. Don't know if it's possible [will try it later], but if you can do direct input from a midi keyboard, why not another midi source?

Re the Omni-preset: So how do you select the Omni-guitar in a new arrangement? Double-click on the instrument-definition? In my case it'd open Omni but with the default preset. But I'm no expert to this. I gave up after days and days trying to work this out.

I created a device definition for that particular preset, and yes, just click on it. I selected Omni as the plugin, pulled up that preset, categorized it, and saved the definition. It's sitting in the Global Rack, like Pianoteq, Kontakt, and others.

[elassi]

Er, you seem to have misunderstood my misunderstanding . I was thinking of having, say, Thesys run standalone and send its MIDI output straight into SF. Then play with the Midi data there. No DAW involved. Don't know if it's possible [will try it later], but if you can do direct input from a midi keyboard, why not another midi source?

Starting to see your point.

Well, your idea would add another point of 'complexity' to the setup (not) only by the fact that there's no total recall when you work on the song on another day. Furthermore, the need of using a DAW at a certain point is given - so the best thing imho is to include the DAW right away. Especially when you do electronic music... where tweaking sounds (automation!) and FX is part of the composing.

In fact I've been mistaken at the beginning by hoping to finish a complete song in SF but this is impossible. Even Andre does not recommend this. --- Anyway, it is no problem to invoke e.g. Thesys or any other tool inside the DAW either via the drone method or via midi. There's absolutely no need for feeding its output into SF.

I created a device definition for that particular preset, and yes, just click on it. I selected Omni as the plugin, pulled up that preset, categorized it, and saved the definition. It's sitting in the Global Rack, like Pianoteq, Kontakt, and others.

I need to revisit this part one day. Thanks for letting me know.

[gnosis123]

Well, your idea would add another point of 'complexity' to the setup (not) only by the fact that there's no total recall when you work on the song on another day.

Sure there is - once you import a phrase from Thesys, it goes straight into the library. All this is just another way to get more phrases into Synfire. You were complaining about lack of arps, but you can have whole libraries of them in SF. Phrases that come out of Thesys should be no different, from SF's point of view, from ones I play on the keyboard, midi guitar, etc. It's all just bits...

I just verified that the process works: put a GM synth in a new SF Arrangement. Run Thesys, set its output to Bus 1, use MidiPipe (or the equivalent, if you're on a PC) to route from Bus 1 to the GM synth, hit record. You then have the pattern Thesys played, sitting inside of SF, ready to be stuck in the library, or mangled however you like.

Furthermore, the need of using a DAW at a certain point is given - so the best thing imho is to include the DAW right away. Especially when you do electronic music... where tweaking sounds (automation!) and FX is part of the composing.

In fact I've been mistaken at the beginning by hoping to finish a complete song in SF but this is impossible. Even Andre does not recommend this. --- Anyway, it is no problem to invoke e.g. Thesys or any other tool inside the DAW either via the drone method or via midi. There's absolutely no need for feeding its output into SF.

I agree that the DAW is a given (SF is prototyping, not production, software), but at least for what I intend to use SF for, the DAW enters at a much later point in the process. To me, automation and FX are like the sauce, to be added once you have the basic meal figured out.

[elassi]

I just verified that the process works: put a GM synth in a new SF Arrangement. Run Thesys, set its output to Bus 1, use MidiPipe (or the equivalent, if you're on a PC) to route from Bus 1 to the GM synth, hit record. You then have the pattern Thesys played, sitting inside of SF, ready to be stuck in the library, or mangled however you like.

I dig your efforts trying this (though I already knew it). The point is that there's still a difference between actively tweaking a tool (Thesys) or using a static snapshot of its output which - on top of that - you need to record first. And again: it isn't necessary at all to make such a stunt. Thesys can run as a drone or via midi and be controlled from within the DAW. Problem solved.

[gnosis123]

I dig your efforts trying this (though I already knew it). The point is that there's still a difference between actively tweaking a tool (Thesys) or using a static snapshot of its output which - on top of that - you need to record first. And again: it isn't necessary at all to make such a stunt. Thesys can run as a drone or via midi and be controlled from within the DAW. Problem solved.

Sure, for this kind of thing it would be nice to have routing within SF, or SF's capabilities within a DAW; it would be a lot more immediate and fun. Until that happy day, I would not say that importing Thesys output into SF is a stunt, just one more way to grow your library of phrases. That assumes you want to tweak the harmony, rhythm, etc, of what you built in Thesys. If you don't, there's no need for SF.

[lasvideo]

Lots of potential. Steep learning curve. Great customer support. As challenging as learning a real instrument to make music .

[oockkk]

Lots of potential. Steep learning curve. Great customer support. As challenging as learning a real instrument to make music .

I bought this two years ago, but I do not use it at all. It is difficult to transfer ownership of this to one person only once. In my case it is too complicated and it is difficult to make the music you want. I have a variety of composition programs, and although this is more performance than that, this is just a waste of my favorite pop music composition. It is not a simple tool that is more convenient, faster, faster to respond, easier to control. But that is not very useful. There is a unique and strange charm. Try the demo.

[HiEnergy]

I bought this two years ago, but I do not use it at all.

I still use Synfire on a day-to-day base and did not regret purchasing it.

Here's some videos describing my workflow with Synfire...

[commerce]

I bought this two years ago, but I do not use it at all.

I still use Synfire on a day-to-day base and did not regret purchasing it.

Here's some videos describing my workflow with Synfire...

And I believe you.
But how often do they update it?