Someone said Ixox recently posted a link to a website describing various album remasters which are actually inferior to the originals,
http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... c&start=30
Is someone able to post this link again since I was unable to find it on the kvr forum?
Cheers
Badly remastered albums
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- KVRAF
- 2730 posts since 15 Apr, 2004 from Capital City, UK
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2730 posts since 15 Apr, 2004 from Capital City, UK
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- KVRAF
- 6478 posts since 16 Dec, 2002
oh, I got excited already coz I thought this was gonna be about inferior RE-masters. Like old classics butchered in incompetent hands.
I could've thought lots of examples of that. You know, just about all the first CD re-releases of the eighties for example. Goddam they sound grainy, like an undithered 8bit sound at it's worst (well, that's almost what it is). A/D conversion really wasn't up to the task back then.
But anyway, come to think of it, loudness race has killed even more records.
I remember the mix engineer of the audioslave crying at some forum for example. The musicians simply don't know any better, and the engineers are no match for the A&R types...
Where did this race start anyway? Did someone in charge forget the existance of the volume knob?
I could've thought lots of examples of that. You know, just about all the first CD re-releases of the eighties for example. Goddam they sound grainy, like an undithered 8bit sound at it's worst (well, that's almost what it is). A/D conversion really wasn't up to the task back then.
But anyway, come to think of it, loudness race has killed even more records.
I remember the mix engineer of the audioslave crying at some forum for example. The musicians simply don't know any better, and the engineers are no match for the A&R types...
Where did this race start anyway? Did someone in charge forget the existance of the volume knob?
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- KVRAF
- 8695 posts since 24 May, 2002 from Tutukaka, New Zealand
I keep an open mind and open ears to music as regards the level/overhot argument.
It is absolutely not a given fact that every tune and every musical style is degraded by today's techniques of heavy compression and/or limiting. Many musical styles are made differently to real instrument music - most electro dance for example has never seen a real drum, never mind a real instrument. So the much-hyped "pro" stance that everything is too hot is decidedly dodgy and based on old musical styles. Over compression and clipping and distortion and huge RMS levels is actually desired and striven for by some people you know - you're not automatically right.
Take the bigbeat stuff - obviously pumping, over compressed beats is the desired effect, as is the master pumping and generally increased volume by squashing. Many other styles also permit oversquashing.
Not that I'm saying that some music couldn't do with a little easing off on the dynamics control - there are plenty of badly mastered releases, (NB as there always was even before the days of heavy compression).
And don't feel too smug about knocking the labels and the radio and TV engineers who do use heavy dynamics control. Bear in mind that there is an absolutely huge number of people who listen to most, if not all of their music in places like their cars, or on the radio. In cars, unless you've got a real expensive system with subwoofers etc, then it really helps to have highly squashed music to listen to it at less than deafening volumes. I have never driven around in a Rolls Royce, so consewuently all of my cars have been noisy - which means at old-style RMS values I found it next to impossible to listen to music without turning it up so loud that my speakers distorted.
My present car is an old Triumph Stag - soft top....canvas too ....which means it is incredibly noisy at highway speeds. I've tried playing my own music at what today would be considered very low RMS levels (although probably high by 20 years ago's standards
). It's not worth the effort of turning the tape player on - I can't hear any of the bass cos of my V8 burbling away, and most of the lower mids are washed out by air road noise. Higher mids are incredibly difficult to pick out because of air noise. Yet when I play the same music that I did an alternative high RMS level mix with....I can actually hear some of the music. It helps.
So don't assume that engineers over compress/limit just because they can (although there is a valid argument in that - you didn't used to be able to with the old media!). Many engineers/labels use hot levels because they know that their product is never going to be listened to on a good Hifi by any but the minority.
So I'm not necessarily for too hot levels - but the holier-than-thou brigade aren't necessarily right either. Dogma gets on my tits - it's present day dogma that everything is too hot, and that is just plain unthinking bullshit.
It is absolutely not a given fact that every tune and every musical style is degraded by today's techniques of heavy compression and/or limiting. Many musical styles are made differently to real instrument music - most electro dance for example has never seen a real drum, never mind a real instrument. So the much-hyped "pro" stance that everything is too hot is decidedly dodgy and based on old musical styles. Over compression and clipping and distortion and huge RMS levels is actually desired and striven for by some people you know - you're not automatically right.
Take the bigbeat stuff - obviously pumping, over compressed beats is the desired effect, as is the master pumping and generally increased volume by squashing. Many other styles also permit oversquashing.
Not that I'm saying that some music couldn't do with a little easing off on the dynamics control - there are plenty of badly mastered releases, (NB as there always was even before the days of heavy compression).
And don't feel too smug about knocking the labels and the radio and TV engineers who do use heavy dynamics control. Bear in mind that there is an absolutely huge number of people who listen to most, if not all of their music in places like their cars, or on the radio. In cars, unless you've got a real expensive system with subwoofers etc, then it really helps to have highly squashed music to listen to it at less than deafening volumes. I have never driven around in a Rolls Royce, so consewuently all of my cars have been noisy - which means at old-style RMS values I found it next to impossible to listen to music without turning it up so loud that my speakers distorted.
My present car is an old Triumph Stag - soft top....canvas too ....which means it is incredibly noisy at highway speeds. I've tried playing my own music at what today would be considered very low RMS levels (although probably high by 20 years ago's standards
). It's not worth the effort of turning the tape player on - I can't hear any of the bass cos of my V8 burbling away, and most of the lower mids are washed out by air road noise. Higher mids are incredibly difficult to pick out because of air noise. Yet when I play the same music that I did an alternative high RMS level mix with....I can actually hear some of the music. It helps.So don't assume that engineers over compress/limit just because they can (although there is a valid argument in that - you didn't used to be able to with the old media!). Many engineers/labels use hot levels because they know that their product is never going to be listened to on a good Hifi by any but the minority.
So I'm not necessarily for too hot levels - but the holier-than-thou brigade aren't necessarily right either. Dogma gets on my tits - it's present day dogma that everything is too hot, and that is just plain unthinking bullshit.
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- Boss Lovin' DR
- 14312 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire
Well said that man, horses for courses; imagine listening to 'the fat of the land' by the prodigy for example, if it were mastered like say, U2's 'the unforgettable fire', would sound bloody crap I reckon!
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- KVRian
- 1219 posts since 12 Aug, 2002
Well, you are pretty close to the mark there. Exactly how many average folks do *you* know that have anything approximating a quality, full range playback system.Many engineers/labels use hot levels because they know that their product is never going to be listened to on a good Hifi by any but the minority.
Uh huh...same here.
High fidelity, for most folks, is something they will never experience in life.
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- KVRian
- 1005 posts since 1 Apr, 2002 from Spain
I agree so much!
Getting really tired of the anti-hardlimiting trend going on, where you´re just a talentless person if you don´t understand that boosting the signal is killing the music.
Of course it won´t do that always, it really depends of the style.
Getting really tired of the anti-hardlimiting trend going on, where you´re just a talentless person if you don´t understand that boosting the signal is killing the music.
Of course it won´t do that always, it really depends of the style.
Best Regards
Roman Empire
Roman Empire
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- KVRian
- 689 posts since 5 Mar, 2003 from Sir Osis of Liver
What I've read at that site seems a little too general. I expect a Slayer album to be mixed "hot". 
The graphic on the home page is reassuring. Apparently I've been mixing my songs at 1995 levels.
The graphic on the home page is reassuring. Apparently I've been mixing my songs at 1995 levels.
Buy my cd here (Prog rock/synth pop/classical/soundtrack-ish music):
http://cdbaby.com/cd/cyanogen
Newer songs/unreleased material:
https://soundcloud.com/cyanogenmusicpage
http://cdbaby.com/cd/cyanogen
Newer songs/unreleased material:
https://soundcloud.com/cyanogenmusicpage
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- KVRAF
- 1981 posts since 26 Oct, 2003 from Toronto
One of my faves, but has to be the worst mixed and mastered CD's is The Flying Lizards 'Fourth Wall' album. Cunninghams got great ideas musically, but the overall recording sounds worse than my old Yamaha 4 track cassette deck! 
There was talk of him 'remastering/remixing', but for a gimp like me and maybe 3 other ardent fans - is it really worth Dave's time?
There was talk of him 'remastering/remixing', but for a gimp like me and maybe 3 other ardent fans - is it really worth Dave's time?
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- KVRAF
- 3401 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london
The furthest I can take it with quality plugins before distortion is around -12.5db. I can see why this site recommends -12 as maximum.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.
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- KVRian
- 1325 posts since 6 Mar, 2001 from London, UK
On the basis of which argument: why bother making a logical argument when most people are morons?kritikon wrote: Many engineers/labels use hot levels because they know that their product is never going to be listened to on a good Hifi by any but the minority.
That really isn't what that web site is saying. On page:kritikon wrote: So I'm not necessarily for too hot levels - but the holier-than-thou brigade aren't necessarily right either. Dogma gets on my tits - it's present day dogma that everything is too hot, and that is just plain unthinking bullshit.
http://www.loudnessrace.net/solutions/compromise.htm
"Hot not squashed", is a list of recordings where heating the image has not damaged the music. And on page :
http://www.loudnessrace.net/victims/exa ... tionoflust
Examples of hot remasters reduced to the level of their originals to indicate just how much damage to the original music (by Depeche Mode, Def Leppard and 9" Nails) was done by badly overheating the music.
The argument is not that all hot music is bad, but that making all music hot to the point of damaging it is. I guess it all boils down to whether you've bought state of the art 21st Century digital recording equipment in order to produce music of a lower dynamic range than Elvis had fifty years ago.
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- KVRist
- 328 posts since 30 Jan, 2004
hrrm, I'd have to say all my really old stuff sounds crap - except the stuff I deliberately recorded onto the cassette 'too' loud. So there you go. Maybe it's because we grew up with squashed up dynamics on tapes and vinyl, and expect CD to be similar?
Also, maybe it'd be best to ask the actual artists what they intended (you know, before they're fed into the sausage grinder by the music biz) before slagging of some technical aspect of the mastering of the delivery medium - I never remember going off of Madonna just because my 'Like a Virgin' tape got all manged... And saying Limp Bizkit or whoever is mastered too loud seems a bit weird to me...
On the other hand, maybe with all these newfangled music formats (DVD, multi-stream WMA/OGG etc) they could put out a 'home listening' version and a 'car listening' version on the same disc (or file or whatever).
Also, maybe it'd be best to ask the actual artists what they intended (you know, before they're fed into the sausage grinder by the music biz) before slagging of some technical aspect of the mastering of the delivery medium - I never remember going off of Madonna just because my 'Like a Virgin' tape got all manged... And saying Limp Bizkit or whoever is mastered too loud seems a bit weird to me...
On the other hand, maybe with all these newfangled music formats (DVD, multi-stream WMA/OGG etc) they could put out a 'home listening' version and a 'car listening' version on the same disc (or file or whatever).