Maschine workflow compared to Drum Machines without a Sequencer

[Libertine Lush]

I'm using drum machines for the first time (around Day 2), so it's all still an appropriately confusing abstraction for me--I hope these questions even make sense.

I have seen various video tutorials of Drum Machines (mostly Maschine) with a built-in sequencer to try to bring some clarity, to reduce the abstraction. There are some basic things they can do that I'd like to know if it's possible with Battery 4 in Logic Pro X: as beats are laid down, the drum machines will automatically loop what was played, allowing you to patiently build up layers; to do the same in Logic, I'm presently designating a certain duration of bars to loop before beginning. In Maschine, new tracks are automatically created as new layers are built; in Logic, I suppose to simulate that, 1) I would load several instances of Battery in a succession of rows beforehand?--that would also linearly increase the RAM/CPU load though, would it not? Additionally, the Maschine UI has a view option that shows a detailed breakdown of all pads (named and on their own separate lane) played on its lower half (like here: http://www.native-instruments.com/typo3 ... c-d@2x.jpg); in Logic's Step Editor, individual pads of the same track are displayed in one lane and without pads named (also the case in Piano Roll).

2) Is it possible to have those features with Battery or any sequencer-less drum machine in Logic?
3) From what I can tell, there are 2 sequencers in Logic: Step Editor and Ultrabeat. With Step Editor, it automatically works with Battery. With Ultrabeat, is it possible to use it with Battery?
4) Overall, does Maschine offer a better workflow than using Battery--or any other drum machine without a sequencer--with a sequencer in Logic? And more broadly, is a drum machine with a built-in sequencer generally an easier/smoother experience than when needing to pair one with a sequencer in a DAW?

Thanks for any guidance.

[deastman]

This doesn't really answer your questions, but I just thought I'd make an observation. The term "drum machine" generally originated in the late 70s-early 80s. It refers to a machine which plays a sequenced pattern of drum sounds.

There are sample libraries that don't have sequencers built in, and Battery is an example of these. But in general most drum machines have sequencers and always have. It isn't necessarily better or worse then a DAW sequencer, but they come in all shapes and sizes, some better then others.

[Libertine Lush]

This doesn't really answer your questions, but I just thought I'd make an observation. The term "drum machine" generally originated in the late 70s-early 80s. It refers to a machine which plays a sequenced pattern of drum sounds.

There are sample libraries that don't have sequencers built in, and Battery is an example of these. But in general most drum machines have sequencers and always have.

Thanks for the clarification.

How do most people refer to things like Battery then? I noticed on the NI page they refer to their drum products as Drum Samplers.

Also, are there hardware-based drum samplers or are all of them drum machines?

[deastman]

Yes I would call those drum samplers. There were some "drum modules" without sequencers in the 80s-90s, usually intended to be controlled by an electronic drum kit or set of pads.

[koshal]

In Maschine, new tracks are automatically created as new layers are built; in Logic, I suppose to simulate that, 1) I would load several instances of Battery in a succession of rows beforehand?--that would also linearly increase the RAM/CPU load though, would it not?

I own Logic but use S1 as my primary daw to work with both Maschine and Battery. In S1 you can record in loop mode and keep writing over the same clip building up your part on each pass. When you're done there is a "explode pitches to tracks" function that blows it all out into it's own track lanes. Logic probably has something similar. Can't see why you would need to load up multiple instances of an instrument to accomplish this. As long as every track that's created is triggering the same instrument on the same channel you should be fine. You should be able to even manually create tracks during the loop and point them to the same instrument. Not as nice as auto created tracks though.

Additionally, the Maschine UI has a view option that shows a detailed breakdown of all pads (named and on their own separate lane) played on its lower half (like here:); in Logic's Step Editor, individual pads of the same track are displayed in one lane and without pads named (also the case in Piano Roll).

In S1 there is another view in the piano roll that allows you to manually name each of the notes and save those for easy recall as groups. Logic I'm sure you can manually rename it too. Not sure of a way to auto map this. Honestly I just leave it blank. If I'm using something like Battery, I'll just have the plugin window open off to the side. Its interface shows what pad is mapped to what note under key range.

2) Is it possible to have those features with Battery or any sequencer-less drum machine in Logic?

See above.

3) From what I can tell, there are 2 sequencers in Logic: Step Editor and Ultrabeat. With Step Editor, it automatically works with Battery. With Ultrabeat, is it possible to use it with Battery?

You'll have to find out if you can route Ultrabeat midi out. From what I can remember I don't think it's possible. You may be able to take the battery samples and load them directly into Ultrabeat though. Although at that point it's probably not worth the effort since you lose all the power of Battery. May be better for an experienced Logic user to chime in here.

4) Overall, does Maschine offer a better workflow than using Battery--or any other drum machine without a sequencer--with a sequencer in Logic? And more broadly, is a drum machine with a built-in sequencer generally an easier/smoother experience than when needing to pair one with a sequencer in a DAW?

Everyone has their own workflow for this. So what I like may not be the best for you. You'll have to play around with it and see what gels for you. I really like the Maschine software sequencer. You can lay grooves down quickly. However the issue really with any plugin step sequencer is that you're still usually creating the part in the context of the larger song. So in isolation it's nice, but once you start arranging the song out and need that part in multiple place (with variations) it can become annoying. A lot of the drum sequencers have "patterns" that you can setup to trigger from your daw. (Latest Maschine update is allowing for scene changes triggered from host). But for me I never liked that workflow, mainly because I have a lot of variations on a single pattern.

Another workflow is to use the step sequencer but then transfer the midi it produces to the host. This would be setup differently depending on the plugin. In Maschine, there is some simple routing and then you can drag and drop it into the host. After it is dragged in you can work in the piano roll of the host to make changes/variations.

Eventually I just realized that working in the piano roll itself was the quickest and most intuitive way in terms of building drums in the context of the song. A lot of these DAWs you can make the piano roll essentially feel like a step sequencer. That built in step editor in Logic interfaces with the piano roll directly I believe. So for me that's what works best. The reason I like it is because it doesn't matter if it's Battery, Maschine or any other sampler, the way I sequence drums is always the same.

[Libertine Lush]

koshal, I appreciate your wonderfully thorough post! It's very educational.

Another workflow is to use the step sequencer but then transfer the midi it produces to the host. This would be setup differently depending on the plugin. In Maschine, there is some simple routing and then you can drag and drop it into the host.

Ah, well, I recently tried dragging and dropping a track from Maschine into Logic, and it was converted into a completely unrelated series of MIDI tracks. Looks like I need to look into that routing you mention.

When Maschine is hosted in Logic, and before dragging and dropping anything from that Maschine track into a separate Logic track, the Maschine track displays as blank. After I drag the .wav from that hosted Maschine track to a separate Logic track, then I can see that beats I created displayed in that Logic track. I suspect I explained that poorly, but if you follow, does Maschine behave similarly in S1 for you?

[Touch The Universe]

Honestly, host sequencer is best imo if it has good piano roll (fl, orion), more importantly getting good sound/tweakage fast. Go for Addictive Drums 2--its the best

[koshal]

koshal, I appreciate your wonderfully thorough post! It's very educational.

Another workflow is to use the step sequencer but then transfer the midi it produces to the host. This would be setup differently depending on the plugin. In Maschine, there is some simple routing and then you can drag and drop it into the host.

Ah, well, I recently tried dragging and dropping a track from Maschine into Logic, and it was converted into a completely unrelated series of MIDI tracks. Looks like I need to look into that routing you mention.

When Maschine is hosted in Logic, and before dragging and dropping anything from that Maschine track into a separate Logic track, the Maschine track displays as blank. After I drag the .wav from that hosted Maschine track to a separate Logic track, then I can see that beats I created displayed in that Logic track. I suspect I explained that poorly, but if you follow, does Maschine behave similarly in S1 for you?

It's actually very simple and fluid the way Maschine has this setup. Probably best to just see someone do it. Here's a video of someone showing how to do it in Ableton, but it should work pretty much the same in Logic.

[Libertine Lush]

It's actually very simple and fluid the way Maschine has this setup. Probably best to just see someone do it. Here's a video of someone showing how to do it in Ableton, but it should work pretty much the same in Logic.

Thanks! The Ableton portion doesn't have a Logic-equivalent, no such "Midi out" parameter on the channel strip, or anywhere, to be found. I'll continue googling to figure out the last step.

[koshal]

In Logic Pro X, load Maschine on a track. In the track inspector under the track foldout there is the option to select the midi channel. You can set it to All or an individual channel.

You can also create more tracks pointing to that same Maschine plugin instance on on either the same or different channels.

To do this, make sure advanced tools is on in the preferences and that you set the first maschine track to midi channel 1. then go to "track > other > new track with same midi channel" or "track > other > new track with next midi channel" .. this will give you as many tracks as you want pointing on any channel to maschine

I just tried it and it works as expected dragging and dropping from maschine. I did it on two different kits. However the annoying thing about Logic is that it links all the solos and mutes of the all tracks when you do it this way. I personally hate the way Logic does some things and this is one of them. S1 (or Ableton for that matter) doesn't do that and lets you solo / mute individually in this method. I'm no Logic expert so for a workaround to this you will have to google it..but maybe you could use Aux tracks or something with Logic environment thing. Good luck with it!

[Libertine Lush]

In Logic Pro X, load Maschine on a track. In the track inspector under the track foldout there is the option to select the midi channel. You can set it to All or an individual channel.

That's what I did initially. But because I got no sound, I assumed maybe more parameters need to be adjusted. Whether I choose "Midi Channel 1 or All" in the strip where the Maschine track is dragged, there is no sound.

What the strip looks like for me:

You can also create more tracks pointing to that same Maschine plugin instance on on either the same or different channels.

To do this, make sure advanced tools is on in the preferences and that you set the first maschine track to midi channel 1. then go to "track > other > new track with same midi channel"

That sounds great. Is this the similar to loading a plug-in as a Multi-Output plugin or creating a multi-timbral track, as opposed to loading a plugin as Stereo?

Thanks again.

[koshal]

That sounds great. Is this the similar to loading a plug-in as a Multi-Output plugin or creating a multi-timbral track, as opposed to loading a plugin as Stereo?

Thanks again.

Yes. Logic Pro has a shortcut to create multiple tracks pointing to the same instance of the plugin on on different channels (multi-timbral). If you turn on advanced options like I described above you'll see a check box for multi-timbral under "Track > New Tracks". Just select the number of parts you want when you create a new software instrument. Uncheck "open library" so it doesn't load any default instruments. Then you load up the multi-out version of Maschine on any of these tracks. This ends up being the same as "track > other > new track with next midi channel".

Like I said though the mutes and solos are all linked when you do this. You can't mute or solo anything individually from logic when all tracks are pointing to the same plugin. I can tell in your pic that the two tracks aren't pointing to the same instance of the plugin because the mutes aren't linked

For me the linked mute / solos would interfere with my workflow. I've read that using Aux tracks will allow you to achieve similar results but with independent mutes/solos. I've never done it so I can't advise too much on it unforunately.

[Libertine Lush]

Then you load up the multi-out version of Maschine on any of these tracks. This ends up being the same as "track > other > new track with next midi channel".

Ah, okay! Thought they were 2 things; that clarifies a lot.

I can tell in your pic that the two tracks aren't pointing to the same instance of the plugin because the mutes aren't linked

Does the track where I drag/drop my Maschine group into need to be linked to that original Maschine track?

If that's necessary, then I've resolved it. Initially, I created just a new track to drag/drop Maschine into. Now I created a new track via ""track > other > new track with same midi channel," and it works. When I playback, both tracks, the original Maschine track and drag/dropped track, play in unison. Though it doesn't sound like 2 tracks are playing. Is in fact only 1 being output despite Logic showing visually both playing?

Thank you again! Learning a lot from you.

[koshal]

With this setup initially all you're doing is sending multiple channels of midi to the same instrument. By default this routes to a single audio output (on the original Logic track you placed the Maschine plugin on). So what you're seeing sounds correct. Although if you have different notes on both of the tracks you shouldn't hear unison. You should hear whatever channel/notes those tracks are pointing to in Maschine, but like I said it will come through the same audio output in Logic.

Assuming you've used the multi-out version of Maschine you can do some more routing to get multiple audio outs as well. I think you can have up to 16. You'd have to look up how to do it in Logic, as it's not something I've done in a long time in that DAW. Normally when I work this way..I don't route the audio outputs until mixdown (or if I really need some FX or processing from the host that the plugin/sampler doesn't provide). Maschine has a bunch of FX internally (and can also load VST/AU) so I don't really see a need to route the audio until I'm mixing for drum sounds that come from Maschine. So I just leave it coming through a single audio output while I'm composing/arranging.

[Libertine Lush]

So what you're seeing sounds correct. Although if you have different notes on both of the tracks you shouldn't hear unison. You should hear whatever channel/notes those tracks are pointing to in Maschine, but like I said it will come through the same audio output in Logic.

Okay, good to know I'm doing something right.

Thanks for all your help!