4 tracks of simultaneous recording, with eurodesk vs xenyx

[dellusion]

Hi, i need to record 4 different analog sources simultaneously, and i want to be able to mix them live,

i could just connect the four inputs to my daw through audio interface, but this would leave no option for mixing,

i have seen a nice eurodesk by behringer,

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-eur ... 442fx.html

but i;ve also seen another mixer by behringer

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-xen ... 55681.html

the second seems to have more options for routing signals,

i think what i need is called an auxiliary send?

with pre or posfader listen?(not sure which)

i need a channel to receive a signal run it through the faders and send through an auxiliary send to my daw x4

hope someone can help

[whyterabbyt]

Hi, i need to record 4 different analog sources simultaneously, and i want to be able to mix them live,

i could just connect the four inputs to my daw through audio interface, but this would leave no option for mixing,

well, the DAW could do the mixing.

i have seen a nice eurodesk by behringer,

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-eur ... 442fx.html

but i;ve also seen another mixer by behringer

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-xen ... 55681.html

Those are both 24 input desks. A little bit overkill for 4 analog sources, surely?

the second seems to have more options for routing signals,

i think what i need is called an auxiliary send?

with pre or posfader listen?(not sure which)

i need a channel to receive a signal run it through the faders and send through an auxiliary send to my daw x4

hope someone can help[/quote]

Im not sure what lines you're thinking on to decide what you need, Im afraid. You have 4 analog devices, seemingly with a total of 4 outputs, matching a 4-input audiocard. What are you wanting done to those synth outputs on the way to the soundcard inputs?

[dellusion]

Hi, i need to record 4 different analog sources simultaneously, and i want to be able to mix them live,

i could just connect the four inputs to my daw through audio interface, but this would leave no option for mixing,

well, the DAW could do the mixing.

i have seen a nice eurodesk by behringer,

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-eur ... 442fx.html

but i;ve also seen another mixer by behringer

http://www.sonicsense.com/behringer-xen ... 55681.html

Those are both 24 input desks. A little bit overkill for 4 analog sources, surely?

the second seems to have more options for routing signals,

i think what i need is called an auxiliary send?

with pre or posfader listen?(not sure which)

i need a channel to receive a signal run it through the faders and send through an auxiliary send to my daw x4

hope someone can help

Im not sure what lines you're thinking on to decide what you need, Im afraid. You have 4 analog devices, seemingly with a total of 4 outputs, matching a 4-input audiocard. What are you wanting done to those synth outputs on the way to the soundcard inputs?[/quote]

the daw could do the mixing, i have tied this with a novation sl zero, it is too temperamental, looking for something tactile,

it might seem like overkill, but the way i have seen this setup before was on a massive eurodesk, i think it's because of the need for auxillary sends?

the xenyx has 4 and the eurodesk i posted has none, so if i am right, the xenyx is the one to go for,

"What are you wanting done to those synth outputs on the way to the soundcard inputs?"

simple tactile control of volume and mute,

still no exact idea how this would look like set up though,
it's 4 tracks of simultaneous recording that's needed,

[whyterabbyt]

simple tactile control of volume and mute,

still no exact idea how this would look like set up though,
it's 4 tracks of simultaneous recording that's needed,

IMO a 24-track mixer for just that is definitely overkill. There are tons of DAW controllers you could look at. Maybe something like this?

http://www.faderfox.de/uc4.html

or perhaps this

http://www.nektartech.com/PRODUCTS/Panorama-P1

[BertKoor]

i need a channel to receive a signal run it through the faders and send through an auxiliary send to my daw x4

You could do it with an Aux Send, but usually if you want to tap off for recording you'd use a mixer that features Direct Out (to send elsewhere: a recorder or audio interface)
Also it's possible to use Insert jacks with a cable inserted half-way. Works the same...
Also you could go Instrument --> Audio interface In --> Audio interface Out --> Mixer --> PA

[dellusion]

i need a channel to receive a signal run it through the faders and send through an auxiliary send to my daw x4

You could do it with an Aux Send, but usually if you want to tap off for recording you'd use a mixer that features Direct Out (to send elsewhere: a recorder or audio interface)
Also it's possible to use Insert jacks with a cable inserted half-way. Works the same...

when i tried using inserts on another mixer, it disabled the faders, the only thing which would work on the channels were the gain knobs,

this is where i think post fader/pre fader listen axillary channels come in

this guide was helpful,

http://ethanwiner.com/mixer2daw.html

but it says:

Each of the six input channels has two volume controls: the preamp gain knob (also called Trim) and the channel volume slider. Both affect the volume you hear through the loudspeakers, but only the preamp gain changes the recording level sent to your sound card.

Also you could go Instrument --> Audio interface In --> Audio interface Out --> Mixer --> PA

setting that up in reason would be tricky, you can't set assign different outputs for each track, interface out>>>mixer would be a problem

plus i would still like tactile control of the volume levels coming in via a panorama or mixer pre audio interface in

[dellusion]

So i looked for a away around the faders being disabled when using inserts as direct out, taking away the tactile control i wanted

http://www.sonicsense.com/mackie-1604vl ... 59714.html

I found online someone claiming this mixer could keep faders in the chain whilst sending through dedicated direct outs:

"Tim,
Perhaps my Mackie is a different model than yours, but the gain,EQ, and track fader all come before the direct outs 1-8 (not to be confused with the insert points)and the track fader controls the amount of signal going out the direct out.

tmix"

"Tim,
I guess the Mackies have different options on the different boards. Mine is a 1604 VLZ pro which does have the ability to use the inserts as a direct out, but also has 8 direct outs dedicated to the first 8 input channels as well. (plus 4 sub masters ,stereo and mono outs).
I use several of the direct outs straight into my Delta 1010 and adjust the send to it via the coresponding track fader.

tmix"

luckily i can get one of these at sub $500 price point

should work

[BertKoor]

Direct out and channel inserts are always pre-fader. [edit: false! see below]
Aux sends can be both pre and post. If you want to have recordings post-fader but of the infividual channels, I'd opt to tap off from 4 main sub-buses. In Behringer talk: Alt-12.

You can't go wrong with a 1604, very flexible. Have one myself!

[edit]
Block diagram of the Mackie 1604-VLZ is on page 28 of the owner's manual:
http://www.mackie.com/pdf/1604vlzpro_om.pdf (that's a good read anyway)
It shows the insert is inbetween trim and EQ. Direct outs are post-fader and mute button.

My thought behind recording pre-fader is that you're doing multi-channel recording because you want to mix everything again. Otherwise just recording main out would suffice. And while doing the mixing again you don't want to compensate for the fader movements done during the performance. That's shooting at a moving target, which you can avoid by just getting it pre-fader.

[dellusion]

how about the xenyx 2442?


it also has 8 direct outs, and also 8 subouts unlike the vlz 1604 which has 4

i don't understand the difference between sub outs and direct outs if they are both post fader auxiliary sends, unless they are pre or post fader depending on manufacturer/model

is there a clear difference between sub outs and direct outs?

are the subouts and direct outs both post fader on xenyx and vlx 1604?

if you don't move the fader during recording, your not shooting a moving target though and you can set the level to something which works well with the sound system your using easily via the faders,

if i was trying to record prefader i would just use the inserts on any old mixer, but it's a good point,

i'd like the vlz 1604, but the behringer is significantly cheaper,

could anyone confirm that the subouts or direct outs are post fader on the 2442?

thanks

[BertKoor]

it also has 8 direct outs, and also 8 subouts unlike the vlz 1604 which has 4

Yeah, this one has 4 stereo buses. The Mackie 1064 has 4 mono (or 2 stereo) buses.
Your four instruments, are they mono or stereo? So you need to record 4 mono or 4 stereo channels?

i don't understand the difference between sub outs and direct outs

Direct out taps off one discrete channel. A "sub group" contains all the channels of which you have selected it goes to that group (buttons next to the fader)

So a channel either goes directly to Main Out, or first to a Group (which has a seperate output and again a fader) and then to Main Out.

are the subouts and direct outs both post fader on xenyx and vlx 1604?

You'd have to study the block diagram, usually at the end of the owner's manual.

if you don't move the fader during recording, your not shooting a moving target though and you can set the level to something which works well with the sound system your using easily via the faders

The idea is that you set Trim for optimal gain staging, and use the fader to set relative levels. If you're not moving the fader, then why do you want to record post-fader? Then it's all moot...

[dellusion]

it also has 8 direct outs, and also 8 subouts unlike the vlz 1604 which has 4

Yeah, this one has 4 stereo buses. The Mackie 1064 has 4 mono (or 2 stereo) buses.
Your four instruments, are they mono or stereo? So you need to record 4 mono or 4 stereo channels?

2 microphones , 1 dj mixer and 1 midi drum set, so ideally 2 stereo 2 mono, but i could compromise

so whilst they are both 4 bus mixer, only the xenyx can handle 4 stereo sub outs,

i don't understand the difference between sub outs and direct outs

Direct out taps off one discrete channel. A "sub group" contains all the channels of which you have selected it goes to that group (buttons next to the fader)

So a channel either goes directly to Main Out, or first to a Group (which has a seperate output and again a fader) and then to Main Out.

there's no way of knowing whether these sub outs are post or prefader, (without studying the block diagram), but seeing as there are dedicated faders for the sub outs,i guess that's not a worry, but i am concerned with how sub groups work,

up until now i did not realize sub outs were short for subgroup outs

, if i hit the 1-2 switch on track 1 it's going to go to sub out 1, but then if i hit the 1-2 switch on another track 2 it's going to go to 2?

or if i hit the 1-2 switch it's going to go to both1 and 2 grouped together?

that would not be good as i need to record 4 tracks individually,

are the subouts and direct outs both post fader on xenyx and vlx 1604?

You'd have to study the block diagram, usually at the end of the owner's manual.

[/quote]
http://www.behringer.com/assets/2442fx_P0559_S_en.pdf

quite beyond me

if you don't move the fader during recording, your not shooting a moving target though and you can set the level to something which works well with the sound system your using easily via the faders

The idea is that you set Trim for optimal gain staging, and use the fader to set relative levels. If you're not moving the fader, then why do you want to record post-fader? Then it's all moot...

[/quote]

i think i understand that, but i what i was saying, is i would not do this during recording, i would set the relative level and trim up before recording, the mixer serving as a convenient device for this, not sure if i am missing something

thank you btw, you're very helpful,

[dellusion]

update: i have decided to go with the xenyx, as it sounds like i could have 4 stereo channels coming out of the sub outs, still not sure how to set this up...

[dellusion]

edit.. triple post...

[BertKoor]

I'm thinking you might need a slightly bigger DJ desk that features some extra inputs. There are also audio interfaces with 8 (mono) channels that double as a mixer when not connected to a computer.

I had a close look at the block diagram of the Behringer 2442fx. In principle this has the same topology as a Mackie 1604: Insert is right after the Trim and before the EQ, Direct Out is right after the fader.

But looks of the back of the 2442fx deceive. It doesn't have 8 subgroup outs. Well it does, but 5=1, 6=2, 7=3 and 8=4. Yes, 5-8 are the very same, hard-wired to 1-4. Manual page 15 states that in order to record 8 tracks you have to do that in two passes. First record the odd tracks, rewind and record the even tracks. Sounds very silly...

On a channel you pan it left and/or right.
If it's panned left and you select Main, it goes to Main Left.
If it's panned right and you select Main, it goes to Main Right.
If it's panned in the middle and you select Main, it goes to both Main Left and Right

If it's panned left and you select Sub 1-2, it goes to subgroup 1 (and 5)
If it's panned right and you select Sub 1-2, it goes to subgroup 2 (and 6)
If it's panned in the middle and you select Sub 1-2, it goes to both sub 1 and 2 (and 5-6)

If it's panned left and you select Sub 3-4, it goes to subgroup 3 (and 7)
If it's panned right and you select Sub 3-4, it goes to subgroup 4 (and 8 )
If it's panned in the middle and you select Sub 3-4, it goes to both sub 3 and 4 (and 7-8)

Each subgroup receives the sum of everything you have assigned to it.

On the far right there are faders for each of your 4 subgroups.
Just above there's buttons to assign that subgroup to Main Left and/or Main Right.
So if you assign:
sub 1 --> L
sub 2 --> R
sub 3 --> L
sub 4 --> R
then you get effectively two stereo buses with faders to control the volume of that group.
By assigning a group to both Left and Right, it has become a mono group.

What I use groups for (when mixing a live band) is:
* Assign vocals directly to Main
* Assign instruments (bass, guitar, keyboards) to Sub 1-2
* Assign every track of the drum kit to Sub 3-4

So if I want to adjust the volume of the whole drum kit, I can do that with the subgroup 3-4 faders and leave all the 8 individual track faders of the drum kit alone.

For your application you don't need that. You have two stereo sources and two mics: 6 tracks. No need to "mix" then prior to recording. Honestly, a mixer for this sounds a bit overkill to me.

[thecontrolcentre]

2 microphones , 1 dj mixer and 1 midi drum set, so ideally 2 stereo 2 mono, but i could compromise,

Does your soundcard have 4 inputs (as stated earlier) or 4 stereo inputs? If it has only 4 (mono) inputs, then sending it 2 mono and 2 stereo signals won't work as that requires 6 inputs.

2 mics = 2 inputs
1 DJ mixer = 2 inputs
1 midi drum set = 2 (?) inputs

Have you considered a mixer with a USB audio interface? Something like Allen & Heaths ZED 10 or ZED 14 ... http://www.allen-heath.com/series/zed/