Ableton Live 4.0 Beta available to all! (at last)

[nuffink]

But it doesn't seem to work this way in Sonar 3. This has full PDC and it's possible to play synths in realtime including my Virus without perceived delay. Even look-ahead limiters seem to work ok. The only difficulty is that when editing live Sonar is not completely gapless but it's close and better than Sonar 2 (which didn't have full PDC).

May I suggest that you're not as sensitive to plugin delay as you think?
Whilst everything should be sample accurate on playback, real time delay compensation breaks the law of causality and therefore is, always has been and always will be, impossible.

[munchkin]

A U - C O N T R E!

This works only with OSX.

Typical!

May I suggest that you're not as sensitive to plugin delay as you think?
Whilst everything should be sample accurate on playback, real time delay compensation breaks the law of causality and therefore is, always has been and always will be, impossible.

You may not, young man! Yes it's true I'm an old git who's a bit doddery now so everything seems a lot faster in the modern age. But I take your point. So as it's a physical impossibility how about a PDC on/off switch? And a rename to (Sometimes)Able-ton LIVE/STUDIO

[WillieJenkins]

munchkin,

I agree, I'd like PDC too

[meister eder]

But it doesn't seem to work this way in Sonar 3. This has full PDC and it's possible to play synths in realtime including my Virus without perceived delay. Even look-ahead limiters seem to work ok. The only difficulty is that when editing live Sonar is not completely gapless but it's close and better than Sonar 2 (which didn't have full PDC).

Whilst everything should be sample accurate on playback, real time delay compensation breaks the law of causality and therefore is, always has been and always will be, impossible.

As much as I would like to have a great laugh about this (since I don't really need PDC as well - except for Live to support VSTs when in rewire slave mode), I must point out a flaw in your logic there.
Instead of saying that everything but the compensated tracks is being delayed, you could also say that the compensated tracks are pre-read. What you hear and what you see (e.g. the position-line in your playing arrangement) is realtime except for the compensated (pre-read) tracks, since the only latency you had was from pressing the start button to the actual beginning of playback.
This means, unless you have a plugin that needs to be compensated for in the audiopath of the instrument that you want to play in realtime, there should be no problem playing it without noticable delay. Am I right or did I miss something?

The real problem with Ableton Live and PDC would be triggering clips on tracks with PDC'ed plugins, and that's why it makes no sense for a live use - and thus also for one of the finest features of Live in the studio use: Jamming along an arrangement and arranging in realtime.

[headquest]

Hi again,

I've been messing about with the Live4 beta and I think it's an awesome app in the making.

But Ableton claim in the marketing that the programme is "now complete", and I agree with Eric Richmond that there is a confusion developing between what Live is and isn't for.

While Live lacks PDC - (and, let's not forget, Freeze function, which matters much to me as a laptop user with grand ambitions) - then it won't replace my main sequencing app in the studio.

Which is currently Tracktion (I've just uninstalled Cubase SX2 in preference, as it was unstable, unnecessarily complex, and there's no longer any place for dongles in my world )... and while we're on the subject, if an 80 dollar download can have full PDC and freeze perfectly implemented then I think that raises some pretty serious questions about the "major" players!! ).

I will be buying Live4 - to do what it says on the tin, and not to replace my sequencer in the studio.

So imo mixed messages are being sent with this one (and look what that did for Acid...)

[munchkin]

I must point out a flaw in your logic there.

4 words: 'spanner', 'in', 'the' and 'works'.

[munchkin]

You've got my mind racing Dr Wrackler b-cos when I think hard about it you make sense. No host is instantaneous because it has to compensate for soundcard latency, hardware controller midi info and the processing of everything the host is using (audio/midi/fx/synths) on each of its tracks...hmmm...

[christianmusicmaker]

nufflink, I can't agree more.

Its clear that there is a rift forming where the developers created it to be used in entirely new situations and for entirely new purposes, and users, now that live incorporates more live performance tools, which happen to resemble features in a normal DAW are beginning to judge the app compared to actual sequencers.

Very good point Eric...I somehow think Ableton were quite happy to just give their customers what they asked for.... more midi features but somehow Live 4 has caused such a stir that many have already made the decsion to stop using Cubase and Sonar e.t.c without realising that Ableton may not necessarily be aiming at that market...maybe they never will.

Of course there are many similarities but for me without PDC I run the risk of blisfully loading up a plug like SIR or any other plug like a UAD plug only to find out that the lack of PDC causes me problems.

I would be very unhappy if I had already trashed or sold my copy of Sonar3!

This seems like an unexpected side effect of inclusion of midi functions in Live 4.Some people really do see it as a replacement for every high end sequencers out there even I thought so until I asked Ableton myself about PDC in Live 4.

I now see it as easily the best rewire application out there.

The great thing about choice is what is important to me...PDC...may be of little or no interest to another potential Live 4 buyer.

If a person thinks PDC is not an issue great...enjoy your workflow in Live I certainly have but I will certainly not replace everything I have with Live 4 without PDC.

We can both be happy and appreciate our different approaches to Live 4 and respect each others views.

It is always interesting to read how people use the same application to acheive the smae results using different methods.Great

I have Live 3. It has to be one of the best ever decisions I made as far as music applications are concerned.

[meister eder]

I must point out a flaw in your logic there.

4 words: 'spanner', 'in', 'the' and 'works'.

That's beyond my English knowledge. What do you mean?

Btw. the flaw was not meant to be in your logic but in nuffink's - that again is the logic of quoting...

[christianmusicmaker]

Hi again,

I've been messing about with the Live4 beta and I think it's an awesome app in the making.

But Ableton claim in the marketing that the programme is "now complete", and I agree with Eric Richmond that there is a confusion developing between what Live is and isn't for.

While Live lacks PDC - (and, let's not forget, Freeze function, which matters much to me as a laptop user with grand ambitions) - then it won't replace my main sequencing app in the studio.

Which is currently Tracktion (I've just uninstalled Cubase SX2 in preference, as it was unstable, unnecessarily complex, and there's no longer any place for dongles in my world )... and while we're on the subject, if an 80 dollar download can have full PDC and freeze perfectly implemented then I think that raises some pretty serious questions about the "major" players!! ).

I will be buying Live4 - to do what it says on the tin, and not to replace my sequencer in the studio.

So imo mixed messages are being sent with this one (and look what that did for Acid...)

Yes!!!

[christianmusicmaker]

No. It's only important if you use plugs which introduce an unacceptable latency.

Fair point...I wonder if there is any kind of list of plugs that need PDC there must some sort of known list of sorts?

I hope none of the plugs that ship with Ableton Live 4 will need PDC.

[WillieJenkins]

none of the 'live effects' need PDC

[Joxer the Mighty]

Not sure if there is a list of effects that need PDC, but unless I'm mistaken, all the convolution reverbs do.

[munchkin]

I must point out a flaw in your logic there.

4 words: 'spanner', 'in', 'the' and 'works'.

That's beyond my English knowledge. What do you mean?

Btw. the flaw was not meant to be in your logic but in nuffink's - that again is the logic of quoting...

It means that you've raised a flaw in nuffinks arguement (thrown a spanner in the works) and I see your point of view.

[munchkin]

Look ahead limiters, delays, reverbs, synths are just a few of the plugin types that may require PDC I think. There is also the issue of how plugins are routed in a host to consider. Some hosts have PDC on insert FX only while others have PDC on busses as well.