Which of the following DAWs best for heavy MIDI editing & arranging?

[5Lives]

If people who own Cubase aren't using Midi Logical Editor scripts on a regular basis it's probably because they're just intimidated by it, and/or don't really understand it's value.

I happen to own Cubase Pro 8. It is a very deep program, so not claiming I know all of the features, but I do know about the logical editor and have never once needed to use it - even with very MIDI intensive stuff like orchestral scoring. Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us who might be intimidated or unable to understand what are the common scenarios you use it in?

[SJ_Digriz]

If people who own Cubase aren't using Midi Logical Editor scripts on a regular basis it's probably because they're just intimidated by it, and/or don't really understand it's value.

I happen to own Cubase Pro 8. It is a very deep program, so not claiming I know all of the features, but I do know about the logical editor and have never once needed to use it - even with very MIDI intensive stuff like orchestral scoring. Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us who might be intimidated or unable to understand what are the common scenarios you use it in?

What if you wanted to change a MIDI parameter (any MIDI parameter) in the entire project but only for where note G3 occurs... Obviously over the top answer to make it obvious what it is for.

I've wanted to MIDI compress specific phrases before. I've done note replacement. Velocity scaling etc.. But think of it globally instead of just what is open in the ME.

[5Lives]

Good examples, but I guess I consider those the 10% scenarios that most people never come across in day to day work, but that may just be me.

[LawrenceF]

That's not the point at all.

The point is that if you "compare midi" between products and potentially (when or if that happens) leave out the most powerful midi features in daw x or y or z, the comparison is maybe less useful.

And I'm not suggesting any tutorials I may have done are more useful. Most aren't. That appears to be what exactly what a lot of people want, the basics, so they don't have to read the manual. I do get that.

But comparing the basics is not a real comparison, especially not with two daws as far apart in midi editing power as Studio One and Cubase. If I were comparing Cubase to S1 for midi editing the first thing I'd touch on is that you can do a lot of things in Cubase without ever even opening the piano roll or the in place editor. Cubase can attack notes directly from anywhere, which is a pretty big difference in editing.

[SJ_Digriz]

Good examples, but I guess I consider those the 10% scenarios that most people never come across in day to day work, but that may just be me.

It's not useful until the day you need it ... then its crucial. Also, I've seen people in other DAWs and even in Cubase laboriously do things that can be done with the Logical Editor in seconds. They just don't know any better.

And, basically you are reinforcing what I said, the most powerful MIDI editor is the one that you know how to use. All the fancy bells and whistles (that would actually make for the more powerful editor), are useless if you don't use them.

We could go the other direction and show the simple keycommand for moving notes up/down. Based on that, all DAW MIDI editors are equal. No point in worrying about it.

[SJ_Digriz]

also the OP said "HEAVY MIDI EDITING".. I guess we can debate what that means. But, I can make the case that heavy imply's things beyond basic note entry and manipulation in a single region.

[LawrenceF]

Hey, I love Studio One, but for powerful midi editing it's not even in the same league as Cubase unless your needs are relatively basic.

It has a few really clever bits in it though, but it's not even remotely comparable to Cubase for editing overall.

Honestly, it doesn't even have the somewhat basic velocity and pitch fiters for midi edits yet. It's still being developed. It'll get there eventually.

[LawrenceF]

I should also mention that the Midi Logical Editor in Cubase scares some people away because it looks like something complex. But if you stop and think about it, it's really nothing more than just another edit dialog...

Open it...
Set it to do x, y and z... (Mute all C4's with velocity less than 80, whatever, or split all C3's and B2's to a new track)
Hit Apply or whatever...
Close it...

It's really no different from any other edit dialog except that it can use more powerful conditions for it's filters and has if/and/or logic.

[inkwarp]

as has been said before, and will be said again, you will get as much out of what you are using as you are prepared to put in. all the daws mentioned have their pros and cons, are weighted more towards the midi side of things, to the audio.
only trial and experience will provide the solution ( as long as you know that there is not and never will be the 'ideal' perfect solution. because software is written by people with bias as well. every daw i have ever used ( and i can safely say i have used nearly all) would suffice for expediting the making of music. but then there are 'preferences', aesthetics, ergonomics, workflow, genre leanings .. ad infinitum.
what's funny about your post is you already have two of the pack leaders, cubase in particular which i would be using now if i could afford it, and yet you are looking for advice on software the strongest examples of which you already have.
i tell you what, i'll do you swapsies. you can have my copy of acid 4 and fl studio 6 in exchange for crappy old cubase eh?

[Kalamata Kid]

I would have to go with Cubase as being the king of Midi as it has Logical Editor, Transformer and Input Transformer. It also has Piano roll midi editing and several other ways to edit midi. Cubase has it's own proprietary MFX and can also use the Cakewalk MFX.

But the best of all is to put Bidule http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/ in the IN in Cubase or other DAW and there you can play around with the Bidule propriety midi effects and a plethora of VSTi mdi fx of which many are free. Besides Bidule try also energyXT, and other modular VST/VSTi and insert in the Input before the VSTi.

[5Lives]

We could go the other direction and show the simple keycommand for moving notes up/down. Based on that, all DAW MIDI editors are equal. No point in worrying about it.

I think that video shows that actually not all DAW MIDI editors are equal for even the basic stuff, which I guess is an interesting thing to know for most people if they're trying to choose one. If you already have a DAW and you have very specific needs for MIDI (like perhaps the OP does), then yes, that video is way too basic, but I don't think that was ever the intended audience of the video. Having said that, it seems like some videos exploring the practical usage of some of the more advanced functionality would be helpful - don't think that exists unfortunately.

[chk071]

Hey, I love Studio One, but for powerful midi editing it's not even in the same league as Cubase unless your needs are relatively basic.

I didn't really dig deep into midi editing in any host yet, but i read a couple of times that Cubase is more powerful regarding that than S1 or others. Which are those advanced midi editing features? And are those essential for your work, or rather on a base "handy to have, but you can get there with a bit more effort in other hosts as well"?

[Robert Randolph]

I will point out that DP has very similar capabilities to the Logical Editor in Cubase. In DP it's just a search function with lots of filters, then you can apply modifcations are you normally would with transform tools or whatever other editing tool.

There's a lot of search options/filters and you can save searches, combine searches, or apply searches to a wide variety of objects (such as chunks!).

So it's very similar to the logical editor, except with the addition of chunks in DP which can make for some very useful project management features.

[LawrenceF]

Hey, I love Studio One, but for powerful midi editing it's not even in the same league as Cubase unless your needs are relatively basic.

I didn't really dig deep into midi editing in any host yet, but i read a couple of times that Cubase is more powerful regarding that than S1 or others. Which are those advanced midi editing features? And are those essential for your work, or rather on a base "handy to have, but you can get there with a bit more effort in other hosts as well"?

Well... here's the thing... and SJ_Digriz kinda already touched on it. Hypothetical example to follow...

1. Ok, you can play keys pretty well so you mostly just play and you might edit a few things along the way, move a few notes, try some different octaves with transpose, no biggie. For the most part, if you can play, you're good. Record what you play, edit a little, no biggie.

2. However, what happens is that eventually you run into a situation where you need to make major edits to many (or all) midi tracks, major changes, and without the tools to "deep dive" into the midi data you're looking at some looooonnnng minutes of manual editing. So while your new daw may put you on the fast track for a lot of other stuff, when that kinda thing happens where you have to do a lot of (what would be mostly unnecessary in Cubase) manual midi editing, it's... not fun.

So like SJ kinda said earlier, when you need to do that it's a blessing. If you never do need that or never used those kinds of tools, you'll never miss it.

The other part of it is that when you are dealing with a large midi production and you want to experiement with say... chord voicings. In Cubase you can just dive into the data and transpose stuff (individual notes in chords) really easily, based on any kind of filter imaginable, without even opening a midi editor. Without those kinds of tools it's all manual labor that (to the creative person) kinda naturally distracts from the creative thought processes.

So yeah, like he said... when you need them is when they come in handy. And in fairness to S1, only someone with unrealistic expectations would expect all that so soon so... we make those choices knowing full well what we're getting into (or we should know), or if leaving something like Cubase, knowing what you're giving up in that trade.

It's (Cubase) just the end result of what was a fully professional midi sequencer - long before - people were able to do all this audio stuff with computers. That's all they (the developers) did back then, 24-7, midi. It's very, very deep.

They just built their midi data in a kind of global way where you can reach anything midi from anywhere so (even if it's rare for most people) when you really need to do complex edits to lots of data, it can save a heck of a lot of time. Viewed in an abstract way, it's kind like a midi Excel spreadsheet, the way it can reach any data from anywhere.

Sorry for the long post but there's so much stuff there midi wise there's no real comparison for the hard core midi editor type.

Otoh, Studio One is, imo, a far better mix platform than Cubase for multiple reasons.

[hueynym]

Try Helio. Pretty amazing. May be just what you need.
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/helio-w ... ko/details

Thanks for the link! I'm not sure it's suitable for "heavy duty" midi editing, but it's great fun to play with, and hope to be able to use it for light duty stuff.

THANKS!