KVR Audio

robotmonkey · Post by **robotmonkey** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:06 pm

DrumAddict wrote: the problem are that Rayblaster sees the vstscanning as debugging function and shuts down the pc , and this are part of the copy protection from Tone2

This is actually quite reasonable explanation, IMHO. PACE by the way might do something similar as there have been cases of unexpected computer shutdowns after installing PACE surfacing on recent times.

If this really is true, then this is a fantastic example of classic malware behavior. Actually some strains of recently discovered advanced and very nasty malware utilized exactly the same technique against debugging.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:06 pm

DrumAddict wrote:it has nothing to do with iLok , a friend had the same problem as Kraznet on win 8 , he had buy Rayblaster (its the only Tone2 product on his computer) and vst scanning with the NI Maschine or Samplitude shuts his pc down on scanning Rayblaster everytime , only solution was deinstalling Rayblaster . he will never buy any Tone2 products anymore as it is the only vst synth which makes such trouble

personal i also stay away from Tone2 products after he told to me

the problem are that Rayblaster sees the vstscanning as debugging function and shuts down the pc , and this are part of the copy protection from Tone2

No such problem here (same for all Tone2 plugins) when scanning plugins on Windows 7 64-bit with hosts like Cubase 8.0.20 64-bit, Live 9.2 64-bit, Studio One 2.6.5 64-bit, Reaper 4.78 64-bit and Bitwig Studio 1.1.9.

robotmonkey · Post by **robotmonkey** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:14 pm

BBFG# wrote: iLok/PACE is the issue.

But this still leaves the question of what do the Tone2 plugins do to cause this behavior? Why they need to interfere with anything to do with PACE or core Windows system files? They are practically the only developer who have problems with other copy protection schemes.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:23 pm

BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:... found complaints about problems with Skype, Blue-screens in Windows, other VST plugins and floppy disc drives in various forums.
A) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from [Tone2] and a crash could happen.
B) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as certain Skype versions and a crash could happen.
C) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from Waves or Synapse Audio and a crash could happen.
D) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as Mozilla Firefox and a crash could happen.
iLok/PACE is the issue.

Looks like finally i found an issue too but have to re-check this for more details.

Just tried to check this using Saurus 2 with Waves and an iLok protected plgun (Lexicon MPX Native).

- First test: Live 9.2 64-bit and a track with Saurus 2, Waves OneKnob Phatter, Waves Renaissance Equalizer (4 bands plugin version), Waves Manny Marroquin Delay and Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

This one worked nicely.

- Second test: same project but replacing Saurus 2 with Rayblaster (plugin dropped wher Saurus 2 was before)

Windows asks to shut down which i cancelled. After that Live still works like before, but Rayblaster will not create asound and the GUI could no longer be opened until a restart of Live.

- Third test: New project where i first added Rayblaster and then Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

No crash with this so far.

- 4th test: in the same project replaced Rayblaster with Saurus 2 (dragging Saurus 2 on Rayblaster from plugin list).

Again no problem.

- 5th test : In the same project again substituted Saurus 2 wit hRayblaster and the same issue as in the 2nd test appears.

So at the moment the problem seems to appear when swapping different Tone2 synth plugins in an existing project while starting from a fresh project seems to work OK.

Ingo

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:26 pm

I think the best would be to wait and see what works for the OP, hopefully he will post it here so people with the same problems have a solution at hand. For me, it doesn't matter at all if something the Tone2 plugins is the culprit, or PACE. Fact is that the combination of both gets you into problems on SOME systems. I have multiple Tone2 plugins installed, Electra2, BiFilter, Filterbank, Warmverb, had Firebird installed too, and no problem at all. No iLok here though, and obviously even if it's installed it doesn't necessarily have to lead to problems.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:40 pm

BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:The [iLok/PACE] copy protection installs a Windows driver with root access to your computer. Furthermore several important Windows runtime libraries (dll files) are modified.
iLok changes the behavior of the Windows operating system. As a result hard- and software from other companies can crash or stop to operate.
The creators of iLok do not provide information about incompatibilities.
In my trials using PACE, I found it to be a parasite, this confirms it.
In communications with that company, there has been a continual method of tactics to either divert the question, or in cases where the customer cannot be derailed from the question, to simply disappear, ignore and avoid any further contact. So I now also question any company that would use them also.
Also... one minority pointing the other out as the minority doesn't make it so.
Fact is there are many who rationally just won't use any product incorporating PACE/iLok that simply don't waste their voice on forums or even the internet itself.
This is more time than I care to do as well.

This is the best recommendation:
Markus Krause wrote:Solution 1 - Recommended:
Uninstall the iLok / Pace software from your computer...
As well as any product that demands it.
(Who in their right mind knowingly puts a "root kit" on their own system.)

I've yet to have any major issues using Tone 2 products.

afaik a driver is not the same as a root kit - just because Markus uses the word 'root' doesn't mean he's talking about a rootkit - a driver generally needs root access if it's going to function on all accounts - if you install a printer driver and you want it to run regardless of the user you grant it root access too

BBFG# · Post by **BBFG#** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:42 pm

robotmonkey wrote:
BBFG# wrote: iLok/PACE is the issue.
But this still leaves the question of what do the Tone2 plugins do to cause this behavior? Why they need to interfere with anything to do with PACE or core Windows system files? They are practically the only developer who have problems with other copy protection schemes.

What you're not getting is that the issue happens with other software that is not Tone 2 as well.
(See previous list reports including Waves; Synapse; Skype; Mozilla.)
Deductive reasoning would then pinpoint the common denominator as iLok/PACE as the issue.

Being as PACE have failed to respond to other developers contacting them about this, it shows a clear pattern of disregard.
As was mentioned, software of the PACE type is relative to the same methods used by some of the nastiest malware. Its very premise is built on a "root kit" of sorts. It runs continually from the first installation and modifies system run files. Tone 2 only scans for it's own software and disables illegal licenses of those during installation and modifies no system files.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:46 pm

Hm, the more i read about iLok, the least i want any software using it on my system really... protection is fair enough, but if it leads to deep interventions into the system which could even harm other installed software or Windows itself, then that's a tad too much.

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:50 pm

Ingonator wrote:
BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:... found complaints about problems with Skype, Blue-screens in Windows, other VST plugins and floppy disc drives in various forums.
A) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from [Tone2] and a crash could happen.
B) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as certain Skype versions and a crash could happen.
C) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from Waves or Synapse Audio and a crash could happen.
D) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as Mozilla Firefox and a crash could happen.
iLok/PACE is the issue.
Looks like finally i found an issue too but have to re-check this for more details.

Just tried to check this using Saurus 2 with Waves and an iLok protected plgun (Lexicon MPX Native).

- First test: Live 9.2 64-bit and a track with Saurus 2, Waves OneKnob Phatter, Waves Renaissance Equalizer (4 bands plugin version), Waves Manny Marroquin Delay and Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

This one worked nicely.

- Second test: same project but replacing Saurus 2 with Rayblaster (plugin dropped wher Saurus 2 was before)

Windows asks to shut down which i cancelled. After that Live still works like before, but Rayblaster will not create asound and the GUI could no longer be opened until a restart of Live.

- Third test: New project where i first added Rayblaster and then Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

No crash with this so far.

- 4th test: in the same project replaced Rayblaster with Saurus 2 (dragging Saurus 2 on Rayblaster from plugin list).

Again no problem.

- 5th test : In the same project again substituted Saurus 2 wit hRayblaster and the same issue as in the 2nd test appears.

So at the moment the problem seems to appear when swapping different Tone2 synth plugins in an existing project while starting from a fresh project seems to work OK.

Installing the iLok fix patch for Raybalster fixed this for me.

Link for the thread with the fixes:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=2322.0

I also posted in that thread at the link now.

Actually the fix includes an updated DLL that you copy to you Vstplugins folder.

That issue i mentioned was only found when switching from Saurus 2 to Rayblaster in the same track, not when creating a new project with Rayblaster and the iLok protected plugin (or re-loading an old project).

Ingo

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:50 pm

Tone2 are quick to criticize iLok, and who knows if that criticism is founded. However, Tone2 installs do not adhere to Apple's recommendations for Mac OS X. Pot calling the kettle black. Tone2 installs on Mac OS X create a mess. Since Tone2 doesn't follow standards and recommendations from operating system developers it's hard to tell who is really at fault here. Could be iLok, and it could well be Tone2 at fault.

DrumAddict · Post by **DrumAddict** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:57 pm

as i said above it happens on vst scan that the PC shuts down on windows 8 not even a project are open or any ilok plugins

and why Tone 2 implemented an antidebugging function which causes the problem on the pc that it shuts down ? again its implemented by Tone 2 and not from ilok

billcarroll wrote:Tone2 are quick to criticize iLok, and who knows if that criticism is founded.

i think its just an excuse from Markus Krause as he dont want say its also fault of himselves

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:05 pm

Ingonator wrote:
Ingonator wrote:
BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:... found complaints about problems with Skype, Blue-screens in Windows, other VST plugins and floppy disc drives in various forums.
A) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from [Tone2] and a crash could happen.
B) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as certain Skype versions and a crash could happen.
C) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from Waves or Synapse Audio and a crash could happen.
D) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as Mozilla Firefox and a crash could happen.
iLok/PACE is the issue.
Looks like finally i found an issue too but have to re-check this for more details.

Just tried to check this using Saurus 2 with Waves and an iLok protected plgun (Lexicon MPX Native).

- First test: Live 9.2 64-bit and a track with Saurus 2, Waves OneKnob Phatter, Waves Renaissance Equalizer (4 bands plugin version), Waves Manny Marroquin Delay and Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

This one worked nicely.

- Second test: same project but replacing Saurus 2 with Rayblaster (plugin dropped wher Saurus 2 was before)

Windows asks to shut down which i cancelled. After that Live still works like before, but Rayblaster will not create asound and the GUI could no longer be opened until a restart of Live.

- Third test: New project where i first added Rayblaster and then Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

No crash with this so far.

- 4th test: in the same project replaced Rayblaster with Saurus 2 (dragging Saurus 2 on Rayblaster from plugin list).

Again no problem.

- 5th test : In the same project again substituted Saurus 2 wit hRayblaster and the same issue as in the 2nd test appears.

So at the moment the problem seems to appear when swapping different Tone2 synth plugins in an existing project while starting from a fresh project seems to work OK.
Installing the iLok fix patch for Raybalster fixed this for me.

Link for the thread with the fixes:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=1889.0

I also posted in that thread at the link now.

Actually the fix includes an updated DLL that you copy to you Vstplugins folder.

That issue i mentioned was only found when switching from Saurus 2 to Rayblaster in the same track, not when creating a new project with Rayblaster and the iLok protected plugin (or re-loading an old project).

Ingo

Thanks for testing this (and risking system stability

). Very interesting.

rasmusklump · Post by **rasmusklump** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:11 pm

BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:... found complaints about problems with Skype, Blue-screens in Windows, other VST plugins and floppy disc drives in various forums.
A) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from [Tone2] and a crash could happen.
B) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as certain Skype versions and a crash could happen.
C) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from Waves or Synapse Audio and a crash could happen.
D) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as Mozilla Firefox and a crash could happen.
iLok/PACE is the issue.

And that is true because Markus wrote that ?

Ingonator · Post by **Ingonator** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:12 pm

chk071 wrote:
Ingonator wrote:
Ingonator wrote:
BBFG# wrote:
Markus Krause wrote:... found complaints about problems with Skype, Blue-screens in Windows, other VST plugins and floppy disc drives in various forums.
A) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from [Tone2] and a crash could happen.
B) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as certain Skype versions and a crash could happen.
C) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as a plugin from Waves or Synapse Audio and a crash could happen.
D) Run an iLok protected plugin at the same time as Mozilla Firefox and a crash could happen.
iLok/PACE is the issue.
Looks like finally i found an issue too but have to re-check this for more details.

Just tried to check this using Saurus 2 with Waves and an iLok protected plgun (Lexicon MPX Native).

- First test: Live 9.2 64-bit and a track with Saurus 2, Waves OneKnob Phatter, Waves Renaissance Equalizer (4 bands plugin version), Waves Manny Marroquin Delay and Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

This one worked nicely.

- Second test: same project but replacing Saurus 2 with Rayblaster (plugin dropped wher Saurus 2 was before)

Windows asks to shut down which i cancelled. After that Live still works like before, but Rayblaster will not create asound and the GUI could no longer be opened until a restart of Live.

- Third test: New project where i first added Rayblaster and then Lexicon MPX Native Reverb

No crash with this so far.

- 4th test: in the same project replaced Rayblaster with Saurus 2 (dragging Saurus 2 on Rayblaster from plugin list).

Again no problem.

- 5th test : In the same project again substituted Saurus 2 wit hRayblaster and the same issue as in the 2nd test appears.

So at the moment the problem seems to appear when swapping different Tone2 synth plugins in an existing project while starting from a fresh project seems to work OK.
Installing the iLok fix patch for Raybalster fixed this for me.

Link for the thread with the fixes:
http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=2322.0

I also posted in that thread at the link now.

Actually the fix includes an updated DLL that you copy to you Vstplugins folder.

That issue i mentioned was only found when switching from Saurus 2 to Rayblaster in the same track, not when creating a new project with Rayblaster and the iLok protected plugin (or re-loading an old project).

Ingo
Thanks for testing this (and risking system stability ). Very interesting.

UPDATE:
Another crash (this time Live crashed, not a request for Windows shutdown) after replacing Rayblaster with Gladiator 2 in the same track (with Lexicon MPX Reverb added). Again seems to be fixed when installing the iLok fix for Gladiator 2.

Same when afterwards swapping Gladiator for Nemesis and again fixed with the iLok fix for Nemesis.

Also added this update to my post at the official forum.

As already mentioned the same issue did only happen when swapping two Tone 2 plugins (e.g from Saurus 2 to Rayblaster or from Rayblaster to Gladiator 2), not in a new project.

UPDATE:
Electra 2.1 seems to work without a iLok fix being necessary. Same about Saurus 2.

Those 2 are the latest plugin releases so maybe a fix is alraedy included there or just not necessary.

So far i needed the fix for Rayblaster, Gladiator 2 and Nemesis. As already mentioned the iLok fix is simply a new DLL file.

Ingo

Caine123 · Post by **Caine123** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:42 pm

FIRST!

im no fanboy of either companies atm as someone hides something and dont expect ANYBODY of those 2 to admit something, this is marketing... until it's not proven that tone2 or ilok collect illegal data etc. i think they can further do their tactics, whatever those are from both companies.

SECOND

please stay to the facts and dont protect either company when they fail!

THIRD

ILOK has many issues, many many many people who write issues. i too hated ilok and still hate? but so far i had no issue with them (thankfully) this doesnt mean they suck. i despise their licensepolicies and hope each company offers alternative copy protections like u-He. just a serial thats it!

Tone2 plugins ARE THE ONLY ones so far acting like this, WAVE plugins seem to be gone to have issues with ilok, i dont read something like that. skype? mozilla? i dont read that either on google much...

FINAL QUESTION

tone2 still has to tell and prove this + WHAT their FIX EXACTLY does and WHY it isnt included in the installers!

so until the final question isnt answered i wont be calm. either ilok sucks and/or tone2. i want to know the final question, if they dont answer it they hide something. then i will test the fixes. if they work then why?

------------

oh and here is the reply of Markus + my question to his reply

[quote author=Caine123 link=topic=1891.msg11172#msg11172 date=1437590648]
[quote author=Markus Krause link=topic=1891.msg11168#msg11168 date=1437567068]
Hello Caine,

it's a hardware problem. Please do note that the problem first appeared when ilok/pace released a new version of their drivers which crashes our software. The ilok drivers change the behaviour of the processor, because some low level windows dlls are overwritten when you install ilok. This is a known problem which has been reported to pace/ilok from us for seveal times, but we never received a response. That's why we provided patches as a workaround.

There is also a ilok patch available for Nemesis. Write to support[a t]tone2.com and Troels will send it to you or download it from here:

CENSORED i dunno if i may spread the fixes?[/quote]

thanks for the reply, i will try the fixes when i received the nemesis one.

final question, why are those fixes not included in the current installers? and can you let me know what the fixes do exactly?
[/quote]

FIXED (iLOK + Tone2 Products = crashes + SHUT DOWN) FIXED thx TONE2 !!!!!