Ableton Live 4.0 Beta available to all! (at last)

[meister eder]

With Live4, I can pretty much kick all other 'host-type' programs out the door, the Live4 + Sonar3 combo shall be my final configuration

But you do know that Live does not support VSTs and VSTis when it runs in rewire slave mode, do you? So unless you use the two programs seperately standalone, there won't be much of a difference to Live3 in rewire slave mode.

[original flipper]

Hi

All a little confusing, no?

Reminds me of using Reaktor Sessions v3 in Logic - you had to go through a convulted process to save its settings seperately to Logic - which you still have to do albeit in a slightly more refined way!

Looking at the variety of programs that ''christian musicmaker' uses - I think I would give up!

If your happy with that variety though, great.

I would rather sacrifice a degree of flexability and stay within the one program unless it 'Fits' in with another without hinderence.

I am trying to return to the minimal ways myself - does anyone ever stop to think how lets say Rick Wakeman would have ever touched his keyboard if he had tried to keep up with the most current synths - he wouln't have would he; or he would have had to give up playing in a band!

flipper.

[WillieJenkins]

I'll just bounce down to audio tracks, and rewire from there.

Why you gotta be trying to rain on my parade, I waited years for live to add vstis, now its here, let me enjoy the monment

-Eric

[christianmusicmaker]

With Live4, I can pretty much kick all other 'host-type' programs out the door, the Live4 + Sonar3 combo shall be my final configuration

But you do know that Live does not support VSTs and VSTis when it runs in rewire slave mode, do you? So unless you use the two programs seperately standalone, there won't be much of a difference to Live3 in rewire slave mode.

Really?

If so, I suppose owners of EXT, Sonar and Live 3 or 4 might be able to get around it as EXT allows the usage of VSTi's in Live 3 and I would imagine V.4 as well

Although as I have never tried using EXT with VSTi's in Live 3 or 4 *via rewire* I am not so sure if EXT could pull it off in rewire mode.

Any EXT,users care to comment...?

[meister eder]

With Live4, I can pretty much kick all other 'host-type' programs out the door, the Live4 + Sonar3 combo shall be my final configuration

But you do know that Live does not support VSTs and VSTis when it runs in rewire slave mode, do you? So unless you use the two programs seperately standalone, there won't be much of a difference to Live3 in rewire slave mode.

Really?

If so, I suppose owners of EXT, Sonar and Live 3 or 4 might be able to get around it as EXT allows the usage of VSTi's in Live 3 and I would imagine V.4 as well

Although as I have never tried using EXT with VSTi's in Live 3 or 4 *via rewire* I am not so sure if EXT could pull it off in rewire mode.

Any EXT,users care to comment...?

As I said: Live does not support VSTs and VSTis when it runs in rewire slave mode. That's for Live1, Live2, Live3 and Live4.
EXT is a VSTi, so you can not use it in Live when running in rewire slave mode. Full stop.

[headquest]

Thanks, christianmusicmaker, for a very thorough and enlightening reply!

Clearly there's lots I can explore beyond my Tracktion / Reason setup.

I looked at FL Studio demo a while back and wasn't sure where to start - but you've definitely encouraged me to take another look. I had thought FL Studio had similar features to Reason but different workflow (which I thought might not suit me personally). Also I thought P5 was another similar product, but as you clearly find a use for all of them, I shall keep a more open mind!

Thanks too to "original flipper" for another perspective. I tend to agree with your main point - the music has to come first and the technology is just a means to an end.

Regarding Sonar, I've concerns about VST/DX conflict/optimisation, as I've only worked with VSTs to date. Also I read that you can only Rewire 16 channels of Reason into Sonar, as opposed to the full 64 audio outputs that can be Rewired into Tracktion so effectively. Which makes me think that Tracktion is a better Rewire host for Reason, but please correct me if I'm wrong...

Interesting that you prefer Sonar for MIDI. Maybe what I'll do is wait and see how MIDI is handled in Tracktion 2, and then reconsider Sonar if I need an alternative...

All said, I'm going to go for Live 4 as my next addition!

Thanks again, guys!

[christianmusicmaker]

Hi

All a little confusing, no?

Reminds me of using Reaktor Sessions v3 in Logic - you had to go through a convulted process to save its settings seperately to Logic - which you still have to do albeit in a slightly more refined way!

Looking at the variety of programs that ''christian musicmaker' uses - I think I would give up!

If your happy with that variety though, great.

I would rather sacrifice a degree of flexability and stay within the one program unless it 'Fits' in with another without hinderence.

I am trying to return to the minimal ways myself - does anyone ever stop to think how lets say Rick Wakeman would have ever touched his keyboard if he had tried to keep up with the most current synths - he wouln't have would he; or he would have had to give up playing in a band!

flipper.

Hi...interesting take on my virtual studio set up!
To be honest I would certainly prefer one host to do it all and I think the only one that could pull it off for me although slightly pricey is Samplitude 8.

It is out in Germany already and the classic version is in the same price range as Sonar.The midi functionality is a big iprovement on V.7

The included FX are so good it would save me buying a UAD card which I have in mind.Logic 7 is another possibility but who knows what will be in that?

Sonar 4... now this could be very interesting. I tried to convince Cakewalks Vice President of engineering to improve the Cyclone DXI which does this..

Cyclone DXi

Cyclone DXi presents a new, more flexible way of working with samples, and brings a live dynamic to loop-based music.

A 16-part, ACID-compatible, multi-out, phrase sampler, loop trigger, composition tool, and loop editor wrapped up in a single DXi synth

Rearrange, replace, combine, and tweak loop slices to create custom grooves

Perform and record loop-based compositions in real-time using any MIDI device, MIDI tracks, a computer keyboard, or mouse

Loaded samples match the tempo and pitch of your project.

Control gain, pitch, and pan of individual loop slices

Full control over looping points: a great way to create polyrhythmic textures and work with loops in odd time signatures

Support for multiple outputs & key mapping

If it does get improved it will provide real time audio manipulation apporaching something close to Live 4.As it stands now I find the 16 pads limiting and it only uses acidized wave files.I suggested Cakewalk look at these two areas for improvement.

Live 3 is way ahead at the moment. I know Cyclone will never be Live 4 but a much improved version could provide Sonar users with a realtime creative environment similar to Live4 but within Sonar.

Maybe to a degree anyway...

It is certainly not bad for a DXi plug!

Then of course once Jules and Mackie are ready... there is Tracktion 2 still to come!


Choices choices!

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[headquest]

[quote="christianmusicmaker"]I can also time stretch in Tracktion very easily and can happily bring even a 130bpm sample or higher down to 70bpm and still avoid artifacts (alt drag) not possible in Sonar. That kind level of change in BPM will introduce artifacts in Sonar.

quote]

I'm a bit bemused by that comment, too.

As much as I'm into Tracktion, I think the timestretching + pitchshifting are among its weaknesses... (also I understood that Sonar was supposed to be better for this, what with its Acidized groove clip thingamy-bobs)

That's what I find so interesting in getting Live 4...

Or am I missing something?

Are you timestretching by dragging clip ends, in the properties area, or inserting the pitch shift filter on the track?

[christianmusicmaker]

I can also time stretch in Tracktion very easily and can happily bring even a 130bpm sample or higher down to 70bpm and still avoid artifacts (alt drag) not possible in Sonar. That kind level of change in BPM will introduce artifacts in Sonar.

i'm trying to work out if this is a joke. tracktion has the worst sounding timestretch of any app ever created in the history of computer sequencing. unnatural, full of phasing and artifacts even at the most minute stretch, pure rubbish.

Maybe I am missing something here…but it is no joke…

You have Tracktion right? Click on any audio clip and check the options available below the track view you will see the stretch option with these sub options

no time stretching

time - stretch quick

time - stretch normal

time - stretch best

If you use the *no time stretching* option it will stretch the clip without artefacts try it! Just hold down the alt key and drag the edge of the clip.

I assume you have Tracktion so please let me know…how you get on. Seriously.

I use Tracktion to stretch clips of various BPM values this way successfully, all the time.It takes seconds.

Hold down the alt key and drag the edge of a clip to stretch without artefacts.

I am using Tracktion 1.5.1.16.

Let me know how you get on...

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[ObsoleteAcc99]

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[7XL]

I don't believe this, BUT I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH TTOZ!!!!!!

It's funny how some people love their program of choice to the point of defending it to "the death".

I tried to convince Cakewalks Vice President of engineering to improve the Cyclone DXI which does this..

And I'm still trying to find that job on the Cakewalk company roster. I'll just ask Carl if and when he shows up again.

[christianmusicmaker]

anyway, the reason you are hearing no artifacts is simple. you have chosen the "no timestretch" option which is actually just a simple speedchange, BUT, it will be cahnging the pitch as well. much like a dj "speed up/speed down" control. it's not a true timestretch in any sense and we have been able to do that in most software for about the last 5 years or so. I presume you are new to the biz?

Thanks for the feedback maybe we misunderstood each other... Headquest asked me some questions about my usage of Sonar and Tracktion and how I use them.

I made a comparison between the two which seems to have upset you!

My point is this...Tracktion *does and can* stretch audio without artefacts ...that is all I was saying.
If this has been possible for 20 years or even 30 using all sorts of basic methods known to every other producer out there then wonderful...I was talking about Tracktion's ability to stretch audio not claiming it has the best approach to stretching audio in the music business .

Cubase SX uses the MPEX alogorithim and that may be 1000 time's better than Tracktion,(almost certainly is), you think Sonar does it better good for you TTOZ I think Melodyne probably is the best of all of them, we could go on and on, I respect your view...no need to argue over the quality of a stretched audio clip!

Tracktions method of stretching audio suits my method of working for *certain projects* I also have Live 3 for stretching or I could even use the version of samplitude I have which has various alogorithims for stretching different types of audio, which are identical to those found in Samplitude Professional which costs about £700

My comments about my preference for stretching audio in Trackion instead of Sonar, were simply a viewpoint of mine epressed in response to headquest's question, no more no less. Not a claim that all should agree with...come on TTOZ

I was not saying that it is the *only* application that can do it however poor or inadequate you think it is,(thats fine if you see it that way) that is not the point I was making. Just that it can do it without artefacts.

Hopefully you can see at least what I meant...no artefacts when stretching in Tracktion *can* be done.

Discussing the quality compared to other applications out there could probably stretch to 10 pages...

I think Samplitudes stretch alogorithim's are superb with plenty of options, many will say ACID is the first and last word on stretching audio and of course there are the Ableton Live 3 users like me, who know how powerful a tool it can be for stretching audio...this could go on and on and on and on....

I respect your views...there are so many ways to make music and edit an audio clip, an argument about *that* is something I think neither of us have time for

I have used Sonar for almost a year and cannot stretch audio in Sonar the way I can in Tracktion.

But...that is my experience with Sonar...yours appears to be completely different. There is nothing wrong with that. Good for you TTOZ..really .

I am sure we *will* agree on this...we are not the first two people to disagree about which stretch alogorithim /process/ or feature is better for making music.

Sonar is a great programme I use it remember.

Your opinion is that Sonar's ability to stretch audio is better...great. I repect your opinion. I am happy to share views not argue! There are not enough hours in the day TTOZ!

Peace

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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