Diva Vs. Real Analog

[wagtunes]

You're a little bit new round here wagtunes, but I think you're starting to catch on. KVR isn't a forum about making music, it's a place where people come to compare gear and debate about peripheral issues which have about as much direct relevance to actually making music as the color of the cupholders have to do with how to drive an automobile.

Welcome!

See, and I thought that's what that other forum that starts with G and ends with Z was all about.

Silly me.

[Echoes in the Attic]

When did we stop just making music?

When the internet came along.

[Z1202]

You're a little bit new round here wagtunes, but I think you're starting to catch on. KVR isn't a forum about making music, it's a place where people come to compare gear and debate about peripheral issues which have about as much direct relevance to actually making music as the color of the cupholders have to do with how to drive an automobile.

Welcome!

There is nothing wrong in wanting to make music on the piano rather than on a guitar. For certain types of sounds the difference between analog and the absolute majority of the software is as much a between a piano and a guitar. For me personally ATM there is exactly one softsynth which really works. I have to admit I'm not a professional musician, but it has been orders of magnitude more complicated for me (and almost never actually work) with other software synths. Particularly Diva comes pretty close, but doesn't really work for me either (sorry Urs, I really value your work, but that's simply the way it is, no offense meant).

Of course your mileage my vary by a great amount,

[Mutant]

one softsynth

Which one ?
Reaktor ?

[zerocrossing]

Very few people can afford more than one

Yeah, if you're talking about a CS80 or Jupiter 8. (but you should spend some time over at Gearslutz and be amazed at the number of people who do!)

...I'll stick to these so-called inferior virtual instruments. They're relatively inexpensive, sound great, and I have as many instances as my CPU can handle. I don't have to spend time wiring up nests of cables to audio interfaces, worrying about getting the tempo synced to other devices/hosts, dealing with ground hum, spending several minutes dialing in that preset that I wrote down (for the really, real analog stuff). And with my luck after all that I discover one of the keys isn't producing a voice so I have to take it into the shop for a $200 sensor repair that takes 2 weeks to finish.

It's true, virtual instruments do afford you many modern conveniences. We live in amazing times. Can you imagine what an awkward monster a synth like Absynth or Alchemy would be in hardware? One thing though, when factoring in price of hardware, make sure you add in the cost of a new computer every few years and the constant progress of software updates.

There's no such thing as a "better sound".

Well, that's not really true... at least in the context we're talking about. If it were true, there would have never been recording studios. Never been expensive high end instruments of any kind. Why have a great studio monitor if there is no such thing as "better sound?"

There are only different sounds that people prefer one set over another. Even if I preferred the sound of hardware I still would use software instruments for all the convenience they afford me.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/phat-fu

Find me a plug in that sounds that good. That was a rhetorical statement. You won't. If you "prefer" an analog style of sound over another type... then you will not do better. You just won't. If you can't hear the difference, consider yourself lucky, but my guess is that if you got into a room with an Omega 8 and your best plug ins, you'd change your tune. As much as I think Monark and the SH-2 plug in are modern marvels and steps forward in analog modeling, when NI put their Monark vs. Model D comparison up on their site, I picked the Model D every time with ease.

But, I'm not going to buy a Model D. I wouldn't even if I had the cash. I need a higher level of modern features for my work style. But I did buy a Studio Electronics ATC-X which has a 24 db ladder style filter (and a SEM, ARP and 303) and offers a bunch of features impossible on a Model D. You can buy one new from Jrr shop for $1439. You can regularly find the ATC-1 used for $500 (it's the same but lacks distortion and only has a single filter model) They're fairly expensive compared to a plug in, but not a king's ransom. Not nearly as much as a Minimoog. It's reliable and has, MIDI, preset memory, velocity, aftertouch, cross modulation, ring modulation, distortion, etc. You don't even have to spend $500 to get there. You can get a MoPho used for $250. You can probably get Microbrutes, Minibrutes and Bass Station 2's for similar prices too. I especially recommend the Bass Station 2. Sounds amazing and makes a decent 25 key controller to boot.

I own a bunch of VA software. I bought most of it when I had to go ITB. It's great, but there are points where it breaks down. Filter overdrive and other distortions, internal feedback (though Monark does a pretty good job) osc sync, high resonance filters, audio rate modulation, etc. If you stay away from those things, you'll be pretty good... though I do think that my KingKORG does a better job than most software, and trust me, it's no "Lambo." Still, I will hit that software up. I couldn't resist Syn'X 2. It just sounds great and has a character I really dig. I'll probably buy Oddity 2 as well, though I wish they'd add aftertouch modulation to it. There's also the stuff that couldn't be done in hardware. I updated to Omnisphere 2 even though I had a brand new Prophet 12 in my studio. I'm planning on getting Obscureium at some point too. A hybrid studio is really an amazing thing. I don't have to choose a side. I use what works best for the task at hand.

[zerocrossing]

To me no one has yet established the fact that hardware synths sound better. Ok different I'll give you that even if the difference is often tiny but better ? No.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/omega-man

Beat it. Just beat it.

[wagtunes]

To me no one has yet established the fact that hardware synths sound better. Ok different I'll give you that even if the difference is often tiny but better ? No.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/omega-man

Beat it. Just beat it.

Let me start off by saying that I own hardware (going all the way back to 1979) and software. So I'm not a "fanboy" in either direction. The only reason I don't use my hardware anymore is because of lack of space and convenience of software.

Having said that, if you put me up against a stone wall with a gun to my head and said to me "Hardware or software, guess wrong and I blow your brains out" I honestly couldn't say with 100% certainty that what I just heard was hardware. Not with some of the great sounding tracks I've heard JUST with soft synths.

I can't even tell you what hardware synths those were though I think I hear a Jupiter in there somewhere. It's either that or a Prophet. Not entirely sure. The lead at around 4 minutes sounded like a Moog of some kind but again, not 100% sure.

So what exactly am I supposed to be hearing that's supposed to make me go "OMG that's hardware hands down and absolutely blows away everything I've ever heard come out of a PC" because I'm not hearing it.

Maybe my ears are just bad. It's quite possible. I'm 57 years old and my upper register is pretty well shot to hell. But I'd like to think I'm not so far gone that I can't tell "real" quality from a "pretender."

My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

PS - Track sounded great. Loved it.

[Mutant]

I can't even tell you what hardware synths those were though I think I hear a Jupiter in there somewhere. It's either that or a Prophet. Not entirely sure. The lead at around 4 minutes sounded like a Moog of some kind but again, not 100% sure.

Guessing purely on the soundcloud user name in that link:
http://www.studioelectronics.com/products/synths/

[Mutant]

PS - Track sounded great. Loved it.

Not exactly my favorite types of sounds, so not so great for me.
Check some of the top 3 winners of One Synth Challenges and you will often hear nicer sounds.
In this context "nicer" doesn't mean more analog, but more pleasing to my ears.

[do_androids_dream]

Even if I preferred the sound of hardware I still would use software instruments for all the convenience they afford me.

I think this is one of the things I have a lot of trouble grasping. We're making art not taking part in some sort of exercise in efficiency. Workflow/efficiency/ease of use - these are all things that have become part of the lingo since software took over and I'm sure that it affects the creative mindset in a very negative way. There's no way I would choose convenience over the actual sound of my art - the actual sound being the only part of my art that the listener experiences.

[zerocrossing]

The MS-20s, especially a modern remake may not be the same circuit as the original MS-10 rev2.

To add to our street cred, we have two original vintage MS-20s, a Rev1 and a Rev2. We also have a Monotron, but that's something entirely different, sound-wise.

(that said, we don't have any MS-10s... as much as I'd love to, I can't possibly stuff any more vintage synths into our office space)

You should get a plug in!

[chk071]

I dunno. I would definitely open up the workflow against sound case if the sound is only slightly better, and the disadvantages outbalance. The problem for me also is that if then, i'd go for a hardware VA with many, many knobs, as that would give me the hands on control i expect from hardware, and which actually IS an advantage over software for me. But that will be very expensive, and what's left over is stuff like the Blofeld or Virus Snow, which i'd rather control with a VST editor then, which makes me wonder why i shouldn't just go on using software then. So, for me, it's pretty clear, unless i really get a jolly good deal somewhere, which i don't expet to happen.

[zerocrossing]

My point being that "hardware" or dedicated units are no longer the zenith of synthesis. "Softsynths" or computer based synths are now the gold standard.

The hardware fans can say "Ooooh software can't do "zzzzzzt" so it's inferior". But hardware can't even dream of creating the sounds of some modern softsynths.

I don't care about 40 year old zzzzzzt but then I don't restrict my definition of synthesis to a saw wave through a low pass filter...........

(Oh and as I said before I still own 6 hardware synths but they have been relegated to collecting dust)

If you're talking about the Nord Lead 2x, Virus TI, AN1x, and other VA tech from the 90s and early 00s, then I think you're 100% correct. My Snow went right out the window after some quality time with Serum. But in more expensive modern synths like the Solaris, and maybe the Accelerator, I think you're wrong. I even think my inexpensive KingKORG is better. I think hardware could be better than software VA, but because software has gotten so good, developers have abandoned cheap and mid range VA and left the really good stuff to the boutique developers. I'm curious to see if Access steps up it's game and takes the fairly ancient VA tech from the Virus series to the next level in a Virus TI3.

I don't see why anyone who uses a computer in the studio would really bother with those old VAs... I even listened to a bunch of Ultranova demos and thought, "meh."

One thing that I don't think has been discussed much is that even though the Virus TI is long in the tooth, it does give you a ton of polyphony for no CPU hit. That's something.

[zerocrossing]

I dunno. I would definitely open up the workflow against sound case if the sound is only slightly better, and the disadvantages outbalance. The problem for me also is that if then, i'd go for a hardware VA with many, many knobs, as that would give me the hands on control i expect from hardware, and which actually IS an advantage over software for me. But that will be very expensive, and what's left over is stuff like the Blofeld or Virus Snow, which i'd rather control with a VST editor then, which makes me wonder why i shouldn't just go on using software then. So, for me, it's pretty clear, unless i really get a jolly good deal somewhere, which i don't expet to happen.

I keep hearing about "the workflow." I too prefer the ITB workflow. It's fast and fun. But adding a hardware analog or two, especially modern ones, isn't rocket science. Also, Elektron has now introduced a beta (well they're still adding functionality so I'm calling it a stable alpha) of their Overbridge software. This allows VST control and audio transfer via USB from their Analog Four and RYTM. I suspect we'll see more and more of this as time goes on. I'm already able to control my Prophet 12, and Pulse 2 with a plug in. I control my Bass Station 2, ATC-X and Nord Drum2 with M4L devices. It's just not that hard. I think a lot of people are thinking that all hardware analogs are like a Jupiter 8, or the like. They're not.

But I agree that there is no real reason to use a Blofeld or Snow in modern times unless you're maxing out your CPU with other plug ins. One of the reasons I went to hardware amp modeling is that Amplitube was taking up a lot of my CPU that I would rather have freed up to do other things that can't be had in hardware.

[zerocrossing]

To me no one has yet established the fact that hardware synths sound better. Ok different I'll give you that even if the difference is often tiny but better ? No.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/omega-man

Beat it. Just beat it.

Let me start off by saying that I own hardware (going all the way back to 1979) and software. So I'm not a "fanboy" in either direction. The only reason I don't use my hardware anymore is because of lack of space and convenience of software.

Having said that, if you put me up against a stone wall with a gun to my head and said to me "Hardware or software, guess wrong and I blow your brains out" I honestly couldn't say with 100% certainty that what I just heard was hardware. Not with some of the great sounding tracks I've heard JUST with soft synths.

I can't even tell you what hardware synths those were though I think I hear a Jupiter in there somewhere. It's either that or a Prophet. Not entirely sure. The lead at around 4 minutes sounded like a Moog of some kind but again, not 100% sure.

So what exactly am I supposed to be hearing that's supposed to make me go "OMG that's hardware hands down and absolutely blows away everything I've ever heard come out of a PC" because I'm not hearing it.

Maybe my ears are just bad. It's quite possible. I'm 57 years old and my upper register is pretty well shot to hell. But I'd like to think I'm not so far gone that I can't tell "real" quality from a "pretender."

My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

PS - Track sounded great. Loved it.

It's the Studio Electronics Omega 8, and it's probably using filters based on the Moog, SEM, maybe ARP and 303. I know Studio Electronics also makes filters based on the CS80 and Korg analogs as well, not sure what they used in that track, but that's why it sounds like a lot of different synths.

Maybe you're high frequency hearing is shot. Listen to any of the tracks on the Studio Electronics Soundcloud page. I think the difference between what comes out of them and what you can get form software is pretty vast.