This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar

[digitalboytn]

Wow...This is certainly a polarizing topic...

In the black corner we have Sammy Sonar and in the red corner we have all of the others

Like I said in an earlier post,I use Sonar Pro X3e x64 for my work every day and I have very few issues with it...

I've logged in many hours with the program and if the myriad of problems were there,surely I would have encountered them by now ?

So I have a question regarding these stability issues...

Are the guys who are having issues using their computer exclusively as a DAW, or are they running lots of other programs that could be causing the conflicts that they are talking about ?

I have two Win 7 Pro x64 DAWs running Sonar Pro X3e in two permanent locations (with a satellite computer via LAN attached to each one) and also a portable setup with two i7 workstation laptops running x64 - also chained together - and there are no real issues...

But each one of those computers is essentially only running the programs and plugins they need to for the studio tasks..

There is no internet connection and I don't have time to play games

So are the guys with Sonar issues running other programs along with the internet and other rubbish on the same machine as their DAW?

Just wondering,because it's awfully strange how the supporters of Sammy Sonar are cheering him on,whilst those in the red corner think that he's a real prick

[khanyz]

If Cakewalk are aiming their products at consumers, who are unlikely to have dedicated DAWs, then their products should be stable either way.

[xbitz]

more about EDM based workflow in Sonar
"What the differences from X3e piano roll?"

MIDI time-stretching, velocity layering, pattern tool, optimized vertical zoom resolution, MIDI note on/off counting ... and more realistic piano keys

workflow/piano roll etc....
the basics elements of the quick/effective workflow are missing from them, Cubase is quite nice just there is no scrub/audition tool in its the piano-roll just in its track view (and not easy to try out different things in it, setting up track versions not too effective, in Sonar u can drop your arps quickly in the matrix and they can be tried anywhere later, scratch pad in S1 also was bit slow for me but definitely a nice add-on), the left/right mouse click draw-resize/delete note paradigm also missing from it(from S1 also, u simply can't work fast enough in the piano roll of it, Sonar's one good or almost good as the one in FL Studio), AFAIK u can't create linked building block containers in them (end of my video) using the folder tracks, different ghosted views for piano-roll/VSTs also missing for them, the ProChannel things are also superb in Sonar



drop down based track routing also faster in Sonar


so in Sonar> piano-roll, different screensets can work nicely and fast

so IMO say Sonar+MUX + the rhythmic multi-effect plug-ins so plugins with own envelope handlers like Tantra,Looperator (automation handling is Sonar's weakest point) can work very well together

[xbitz]

"It can be used for anything really, but why use it for EDM if there are much better options for EDM?!"
Bitwig, Live, Cubase, S1, Reaper, Reason their piano-rolls are good for correcting but not enough for creating things quickly with mouse, sometimes it's important, except if u do everything with some MIDI based instrument
Live is very nice, just the arrangement view of it ... , Bitwig also very nice otherwise just the piano-roll of it , FL Studio also very nice except the cartoonish look and zillions of windows (no comping), and the missing mixing tools in it, not sure about Logic something else ?

Sonar's weak point is the automation/modulation and the bit outdated GUI look but otherwise it's not perfect but ok IMO, it can't be used live perfomance AFAIK

[jsp1979]

It does appear to me that the Sonar development team at Cakewalk has stepped it up. I thought X3 was quite good, and I think the newest version is even better. Their subscription model has yielded a decent mix of new features and consistent bug fixes. They appear to be listening more to the user base and I feel like their interactions with the user base seem to have more substance (even if they might be less frequent). Craig Anderton's excitement and posts on how to best use Sonar are a nice addition as well.

So, I don't feel the Cakewalk of 2015 is the same as the Cakewalk of 2010 or 2005 when it comes to Sonar. If you left them at Sonar 7 or X1, then you might be pleasantly surprised by the recent development (although if you have no interest in trying them again, that's fine--some companies burn bridges with bad products). I could see how customers of X1 and X2 might have lost hope.

Now, when it comes to their virtual instruments, it's clear to me they have no idea what they're doing. When I heard Rapture Pro was coming out, I had my fingers crossed hoping against hope that it would be a great release. Sonar was looking good and I wanted Cakewalk to have another winner. Sigh. Alas, it was not meant to be.

Long story short: Sonar<--thumbs up //// Cakewalk Instruments<---half baked

The notation contingent at the Sonar forum has been at it for as long as I can remember. Folks, it ain't happening. On an sale, you can by Notion 5 for $50 and it rewires perfectly. I am one that would use the notation in Sonar, and it would be great. However, it's clear that either (a) they don't know how to do improve it or (b) the number of people requesting it is a small percentage of the user base or (c) both. I suspect (b) or (c) here.

The forum definitely has it's share of a-holes. There's also a group that just cannot seem to accept that, yes, Sonar is not perfect. You say something isn't working right and they jump on the fact that it's your fault, etc. These people are idiots and most on the Sonar forum realize that. If you stick with it, then you can get good help and info. There is a wealth of information over there as well that can help fix common set-up problems, optimize Sonar, etc. The Sonar team appears to be more attentive to bug reports as well (particularly those submitted via their system). Their bug fixes tend to have the report number listed next to them with each release.

Sonar isn't the be all, end all of DAWs. I use Studio One sometimes as well, and it does some things better and some things worse. I do however feel that Cakewalk's Sonar development is in the best place it's been in a very long time, and I'm hopeful it will continue to get even better in the future.

[JohnD71651]

I have used Sonar X3 Artist for a number of projects during the past year and stopped using it. I can't speak for the other Sonars, which I don't need them because I have enough 3rd party plugins already. Sonar X3 Artist has served me reasonably well but was also quite buggy.

My final verdict is: Sonar is okay, but other DAWs are better. Sonar X3 has crashed too often. The Sonar forums totally suck, they are full of hobbyist fanboys giving unhelpful tips. Finally, I left it because of the subscription model. I simply don't believe that this 'agile development' model is suitable for eliminating bugs without introducing even more bugs, and I generally prefer stability over new features.

That being said, it certainly has many features and is mature, so I can totally understand why someone who has already invested more time and money in it would like to stick with it. It's a decent DAW, no doubt about it, and allows you to get things done.

[digitalboytn]

Forget the BS about EDM...

Most of the DAWs offer similar features these days anyway because they are all copying each other

You're going to get out of it what you put into it...

It's that simple

But a DAW is not a jukebox

[chk071]

The short time i used Sonar X3, i found the workflow to be very confusing. There were 3 ways to add an instrument track, and everything on the GUI seemed to be thrown together, like they added this and that, and didn't think of a good way to implement it into the existing workflow. I was stoked about the step sequencer too, but found it to be quite disapointing and simple. And i wouldn't have thought that a sequence in 2014 still comes with DirectX plugins, with a GUI which looks like Windows 95. The plugin manager crashed the first time i ran it, that was quite a dampener too.

But as i said, i only very briefly used it, but on the surface, it didn't look too well. Just my 2c.

[Robert Randolph]

The short time i used Sonar X3, i found the workflow to be very confusing. There were 3 ways to add an instrument track, and everything on the GUI seemed to be thrown together, like they added this and that, and didn't think of a good way to implement it into the existing workflow. I was stoked about the step sequencer too, but found it to be quite disapointing and simple. And i wouldn't have thought that a sequence in 2014 still comes with DirectX plugins, with a GUI which looks like Windows 95. The plugin manager crashed the first time i ran it, that was quite a dampener too.

But as i said, i only very briefly used it, but on the surface, it didn't look too well. Just my 2c.

It's no wonders so many people switched from Sonar to Reaper, it must have felt just like home.

[xbitz]

till your open its piano roll ... (but I haven't used the pre X4 ones)

[vintagevibe]

I used Sonar since it's first release in 2000. I gave up 3-4 years ago after X2. I loved the Skylight interface - in fact it was so far ahead of the game at the time it's only now looking back you realise how well thought through it was. However I found the program to be glitchy, crash prone and bug ridden. Audio quantising with Audiosnap was a joke - a complex crashfest and difficult to use.

The abandoned X2 after only a couple of patch releases, despite it being half baked to start with, and then launched X3 - which was enough for me to jump ship to Cubase. I'd had enough.

Using Cubase (despite the clickathon and poor UI) was completely different experience. it was stable, fully featured, and just worked. In more recent days I've started to use SO3 and flip flop between them as they are so excellent in their own different ways.

Despite the naysayers I think Tascam are going in the right direction with Sonar however they have a huge amount of catching up to do. Cubase was already light years ahead on functionality and the gap is increasing with every release.

I agree that the Skylight interface is a good one and is a better workflow than Cubase. The problem is that they introduce so many bugs and removed so much functionality that it was a step backwards. X3e still has very serious bugs making it a nightmare to use for me.

[vintagevibe]

The Sonar forums totally suck, they are full of hobbyist fanboys giving unhelpful tips. Finally, I left it because of the subscription model. I simply don't believe that this 'agile development' model is suitable for eliminating bugs without introducing even more bugs, and I generally prefer stability over new features.

Your statement about the forum is perfectly stated and and sad. Don't say that to Craig Anderton or you'll get pages an pages pseudo intellectual whinings telling you that your experience is wrong and the forum is awesome. The subscription model, while not a bad deal, makes it so you are troubleshooting and finding workarounds all year long instead of just the 3 months after a new release.

[Jace-BeOS]

If Cakewalk are aiming their products at consumers, who are unlikely to have dedicated DAWs, then their products should be stable either way.

Exactly. Most Windows developers fail at this logic. It shouldn't matter what else is installed. Windows is particularly likely to suffer systemic problems from the way it's architected to allow all kinds of questionable "integration and convenience" add-ons, and developers'/marketing people's obsession with packing in as much of that as possible.

It pisses me off to no end when this is put on the user, as if the user is to blame for bad software architecture. "You should know better" = "the product is frail and isn't built for its purpose". Blaming the user for crashes is just as offensive as any other victim blaming.

[Jace-BeOS]

When I talked about being through with Sonar because of 8.5.3, Cakewalk people on here, and happy Sonar customers, told me "all that was fixed in X1! You're complaining about a product that is the past! That's not fair!!"

Then when X1 was getting the whole "it's a 1.0 product, just give it time to mature" apologetics, I was thinking "but wait, you said it was fixed in X1!" It was not "fair" for me to complain about 8.5.3 because I didn't buy X1. If I bought X1, it wouldn't be "fair" to criticize it because it was a 1.0 version of a "totally redesigned product".

Then when X2 came out, people said how much worse things were. It was "even worse than X1," people said. Which reminded me that I had been told to go to X1 to solve my issues with 8.5.3. X2 was pretty much abandoned in the shuffle of corporate BS. Yet that didn't stop anyone telling me how unethical it was for me to talk about my 8.5.3 frustrations. It's like I had to buy in to be allowed to talk about product design failures (like the bugs I reported to Cakewalk and had acknowledged by support, but then no record of which could be found by the Cakewalk guy here in the forum, which was unsurprising, since Cakewalk couldn't even find my user account ID in their system one month, but i could find it later on via logging into their rebuilt website).

Then X3 came out and everyone said the same shit again: "buy the latest version and all your problems will be solved"... a claim which failed to be true for X1, X2... oh and Sonar 3 through 7 (and once 8 came out to fix 7, there was a paid upgrade to 8.5 that supposedly solved everything wrong in 8...)....

Never once did I experience "Gapless playback", despite it being a bullet point for each "new" version, meant to entice buying into that next version. Other software had less of such trouble
(Tracktion, Cubase), but people still blamed me as the administrator and builder of my PC.

Now I hear people saying the SAME SHIT about X3 vs X4/subscription model version: "everything is better in the current version". "You're talking about the old days! Move on!"

It's no shock that this is exactly the same marketing and behavior that Microsoft themselves display with every version of Windows: "this version fixed all your complaints, so buy it!"

Dude!!! Learn your lesson and move on!! It took me about SIX major releases to finally recognize that this is how Cakewalk is. It's not the company that owns them (three different parent companies so far?), it's Cakewalk, their managers, their programmers, their marketing people... It's the architecture of the product and its insistence on maintaining reliance on the archaic and non-robust foundations of Windows (it was quite sad to hear that the archaic crap is still in there, but unsurprising). It's the attitude with which the company produces the product and thinks about its customers.

In the recent Rapture Pro thread, I posted a clip from the interview with Anderton (?) where he blatantly demonstrated his belief that Cakewalk only makes Windows software, which was a huge "no wonder!" to Mac users who bought Cakewalk's synthesizer plugins (which have historically been lousy releases that get zero maintenance and end up being utterly orphaned almost instantly upon release). It was mentioned by someone else that before he became CEO, he was head of marketing. Well, no shock there. That entire interview is bullshit marketing talk. There's no content except for his faux pas in admitting he isn't aware that they sell software to Mac users.

Fooled me 8.5 times, shame on everyone.

Also, since someone brought up abandoned features, I could list several of my own. Mostly they're plugins that were released as new integrated features, pronounced with fanfare and then abandoned. Some were even native and not bundled from third party developers (in those limited bundling deals that always screw you later as you upgrade to find that new bundled thing is no longer included or supported).

Cakewalk has no unified plan other than getting you to give them money every year. Now it's monthly.

[deastman]

I've paid for every Sonar upgrade since v4. Some of them have been better, some have been worse. All I can say is that I'm extremely happy with the stability of the current version, which continues to get bug fix updates on a regular basis.