Thumbs up for this kind of activity!
However, a couple of things:
Maybe it was said somewhere, but is there some document where all the details are printed (where can I find one?) , e.g.
- the format/quality guidelines for the original material
- communication (how?, servers, transfer speeds etc)
- is this, as the name says, just mixing, or mixing+mastering (the final product) challenge?
- legal stuff, e.g. what is the output the song owner (composer, orig.producer) gets in the end of the day (e.g. does he/she get all the mixes, just the winner, just a stereo track vs. some other formats, separate multi tracks, when, etc.), does the contest affect to the original copyrights, can the song owner use the mix for the commercial purposes without paying any royalties, etc., etc.
The Mix Challenge needs your help! - any genre welcome (pool nearly empty)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Thanks for that.Harry_HH wrote:Thumbs up for this kind of activity!
And also some excellent questions. Let me try to answer them for you.
I think the best starting point are the "Official Rules and Guidelines" for the Mix Challenge:Harry_HH wrote:However, a couple of things:
Maybe it was said somewhere, but is there some document where all the details are printed (where can I find one?) , e.g.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2&t=415154
This is a pinned thread in Production Techniques (unless we finally get an own sub-board for our KVR Challenges/Contests, FR's were filed several times, no reaction so far!), and I mentioned this thread in the first post as well. Here you find the most pieces of information.
The format should ideally be WAV at either sampling rate, with 24bit at bar minimum.Harry_HH wrote:- the format/quality guidelines for the original material
The quality of the production as a whole can't be easily declared, as music is art. We will listen to everything, and then tell you what might work and what not. Don't worry, the quality bar is not that high to be declined (happened only once so far - and the song provider was more like "you know... I don't care, I cobbled this together in 2 days... take it or leave it").
Communication between the challenge staff and the song provider is either via PM here on KVR, or via mail. Initial contact via Twitter is also possible. Communication between the (virtual) client and the mix participants is through the individual challenge threads, especially if they have questions or not. So participation of the song provider is(!) mandatory. If he/she is not on KVR Audio, then we try to handle this via mail and forward it to KVR.Harry_HH wrote:- communication (how?, servers, transfer speeds etc)
Transferring material is usually done either via Cloud Drives or servers by the song provider. I usually upload the source material (read: the Mix Challenge Pack) to my server after I gave it a check. If the client can provide a mirror - even better. Transfer speed is therefore out of the question. So even if you're still on very slow dial up or DSL, we can work things out.
Ideally however, if we (the challenge staff) get access to the tracks early. This way we (or rather I, as I am in charge of everything technical) can check for issues, give feedback or ask for fixes, and even with slow internet speed, we're still in time for the next possible challenge.
Currently primarily mixing only.Harry_HH wrote:- is this, as the name says, just mixing, or mixing+mastering (the final product) challenge?
The focus of the challenge is to create a very balanced mix that could then go into mastering. Some participants may use mix bus processing for added effect (mixing through a compressor or tape comes to mind). In the early days, some even thought "this has to be mastered and presented as 'done' ". But through the course of the years, a mastering process (on the mix bus) has been reduced and it's really back down to mixing only.
And even if somebody does some (pre)mastering, there are tools on the market to loudness normalize all tracks yourself (as client), A/B the material, and therefore hear if something was too over-processed.
I wrote a couple of tutorials on those topics (Gain Staging and manual Loudness Normalization) that you can find in my KVR Marks.
Since the challenge is basically an "open book", the client and all participants get access to all mix-downs to listen to, compare and learn from.Harry_HH wrote:- legal stuff, e.g. what is the output the song owner (composer, orig.producer) gets in the end of the day (e.g. does he/she get all the mixes, just the winner, just a stereo track vs. some other formats, separate multi tracks, when, etc.),
From all the entries after the first 21 days of mixing, the client can then pick 5-7 participants for a Second Mix Round. This round is to fix certain issues that the client pointed out. Things that could be improved (fitting to the production), things that are an absolute no-go, etc. After Round 2, or if the client does not want to go into Round 2, the song provider can then select 3 winners.
The provided material is usually always WAV and for streaming purposes also MP3. Both formats in stereo.
Should you (the client/song provider) decide that you want to do a collaboration with the mix participant (the engineer) at this point, then get in touch with him and figure out further details.
We insist that the provided song is not signed with any royalties company like the GEMA (Germany), RIAA (USA), AKM (Austria), SUISA (Switzerland), Teosto (Finland), PRS for Music (UK), etc, etc. The reason for non-signed material is due to the fact, that especially the GEMA asks for streaming fees on the web (if you're a GEMA member, even your own material on your own page!). And we don't want to turn this into a paper war for legal use and editing, but a fun challenge.Harry_HH wrote:does the contest affect to the original copyrights, can the song owner use the mix for the commercial purposes without paying any royalties, etc., etc.
The song must be your own creation, or you have permission from all musicians involved to work on the material. A good example for band mixes was MC04 where the client was not only a former member, but also the recording engineer. He involved all band members during and after the challenge.
If you want to use the mix for commercial purposes, read: official releases. It's only fair to involve the mix participant (the engineer) in question and talk things through how you handle possible future deals, giving credits, etc. We never set any rules for that, but to us it's common sense.
Yes, you are getting free mixes (it's basically a mass-engineer shootout) that you don't pay for. It's a fun game - so please don't be the negative force in the end and do something impolite.
I hope this answers your questions.
If yes and you have a song to mix (which I hope)... please get in touch with us.
If not, but know somebody that may have, please spread the word.
Last edited by Compyfox on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 5440 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Thank you for the detailed reply, Compyfox.
I take my hat off, there must be plenty of different things to take into account. And as your FAQ states, numerous rules easily turn off the spontaneuous inspiration, I guess in this kind of cases we have to balance between "anarchy and foreshadowing".
I presume some will send tracks as dry as possible which leaves more degrees of freedom to the mixer, some prefer effects printed, which means the mixing is more or less just balancing, and refining (or alternatively leaving complete sections away).
Do you prefer reference mixes from the producer/composer with the individual tracks, or on the contrary, will those limit/direct the variety of possible end results?
I take my hat off, there must be plenty of different things to take into account. And as your FAQ states, numerous rules easily turn off the spontaneuous inspiration, I guess in this kind of cases we have to balance between "anarchy and foreshadowing".
I presume some will send tracks as dry as possible which leaves more degrees of freedom to the mixer, some prefer effects printed, which means the mixing is more or less just balancing, and refining (or alternatively leaving complete sections away).
Do you prefer reference mixes from the producer/composer with the individual tracks, or on the contrary, will those limit/direct the variety of possible end results?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
We had both instances so far: pre-printed tracks and "dry" tracks. But most of the time, we have access to dry tracks.
I actually always ask if there is access to the original mixdown as possible reference from which the participants can build upon, getting inspired by it or totally ignore it and do what they want. KVR MC14 for example set up clear rules to at least listen to certain songs. With MC11, I also recommended to at least get familiar with the genre by listening to certain tracks. MC13 came with a demo mix as certain guideline, but the participants were free to create their own sound with the provided guitar DI tracks.
This does have influence on the whole mix of course.
In terms of asking if I prefer STEMs (grouped tracks) over individual WAV's, I'd always go for individual WAVs for pure mixing purposes. STEM mastering is something I also don't like that much. But this is definitely a matter of taste for everyone involved.
Having individual WAV files can definitely introduce a lot more variety in terms of endresults. But this can both pay off, or go totally awry. Then again... if you have an issue with a certain instrument track or vocal in a limited STEM mix, then you can't necessarily fix that. With individual tracks, this can be easily addressed.
Then again, we also had some negative comments on "too many tracks" (MC10, the Synth Rock track).
But on the other hand, it's called "challenge" for a reason.
I actually always ask if there is access to the original mixdown as possible reference from which the participants can build upon, getting inspired by it or totally ignore it and do what they want. KVR MC14 for example set up clear rules to at least listen to certain songs. With MC11, I also recommended to at least get familiar with the genre by listening to certain tracks. MC13 came with a demo mix as certain guideline, but the participants were free to create their own sound with the provided guitar DI tracks.
This does have influence on the whole mix of course.
In terms of asking if I prefer STEMs (grouped tracks) over individual WAV's, I'd always go for individual WAVs for pure mixing purposes. STEM mastering is something I also don't like that much. But this is definitely a matter of taste for everyone involved.
Having individual WAV files can definitely introduce a lot more variety in terms of endresults. But this can both pay off, or go totally awry. Then again... if you have an issue with a certain instrument track or vocal in a limited STEM mix, then you can't necessarily fix that. With individual tracks, this can be easily addressed.
Then again, we also had some negative comments on "too many tracks" (MC10, the Synth Rock track).
But on the other hand, it's called "challenge" for a reason.
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- KVRAF
- 5440 posts since 4 Aug, 2006 from Helsinki
Useful information.
BTW, I don't want to bring any new elements in the short run to this, because I guess, its challenging enough to run this show.
But what has come to my mind, in a very natural way, is a kind of "spin off" or extension for this mixing challenge. Namely, the "extra resource" I'm lacking almost chronically is not ideas or mixing skills (of course this busines is constant learning), but most of all good vocal artist(s)/performers.
What if we could exchange composers/productions in the purpose that somewhere in the other side of the world there are good singers/producers who has some in his "stall" waiting for a hit piece to sing? That other producer could perhaps add some new arrs./vocal parts, produce the vocal sessions and those two/three partis could then share the output.
This could lead to the commercial networking, globally (more legal stuff for taking care of...
BTW, I don't want to bring any new elements in the short run to this, because I guess, its challenging enough to run this show.
But what has come to my mind, in a very natural way, is a kind of "spin off" or extension for this mixing challenge. Namely, the "extra resource" I'm lacking almost chronically is not ideas or mixing skills (of course this busines is constant learning), but most of all good vocal artist(s)/performers.
What if we could exchange composers/productions in the purpose that somewhere in the other side of the world there are good singers/producers who has some in his "stall" waiting for a hit piece to sing? That other producer could perhaps add some new arrs./vocal parts, produce the vocal sessions and those two/three partis could then share the output.
This could lead to the commercial networking, globally (more legal stuff for taking care of...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Actually, the Mix Challenge already encourages that. By that I mean collaborations. We have had a couple of songwriters from the KVR own OSC in the pool already, and we also collaborated with the Music Cafe Songwriting Competition. I also contacted old friends of mine from "remixing days" (who're also great songwriters), but I've yet to get a suitable answer.
An extended idea was to actually start with either the OSC, the Music Cafe Competition (MCC) or anything similar in terms of songwriting challenges/competition/games, then go into the Mix Challenge (MC). We also plannend a parallel running "Remix Challenge" at some point. But is as of this moment on hold due to the workload with the Mix Challenge alone (we're just three people, and we also have regular day jobs and family). The Remix Challenge would have covered even further collaboration.
So yeah... the concept is already there, but we've yet to see some more activity. So all you (as possible participant) need to do as of this moment, is spread the word. The more people know about this, the more songs we might get, the more likely it is to see collaborations just for that specific purpose. Meaning: a track that started at either the OSC or MCC (or similar at other communities), was then further overhauled for a MC, then goes into the actual MC - and in the end you'll get a ready-for-mastering product.
A song could be in constant editing for several months, with a lot of useful thread posts to learn from in the process.
This is our ultimate goal: having fun, and a certain learning factor.
An extended idea was to actually start with either the OSC, the Music Cafe Competition (MCC) or anything similar in terms of songwriting challenges/competition/games, then go into the Mix Challenge (MC). We also plannend a parallel running "Remix Challenge" at some point. But is as of this moment on hold due to the workload with the Mix Challenge alone (we're just three people, and we also have regular day jobs and family). The Remix Challenge would have covered even further collaboration.
So yeah... the concept is already there, but we've yet to see some more activity. So all you (as possible participant) need to do as of this moment, is spread the word. The more people know about this, the more songs we might get, the more likely it is to see collaborations just for that specific purpose. Meaning: a track that started at either the OSC or MCC (or similar at other communities), was then further overhauled for a MC, then goes into the actual MC - and in the end you'll get a ready-for-mastering product.
A song could be in constant editing for several months, with a lot of useful thread posts to learn from in the process.
This is our ultimate goal: having fun, and a certain learning factor.
Last edited by Compyfox on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
A little bump for "in desperate need of new material".
Thanks.
Thanks.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Another little bump. Still looking for new material.
Though now the focus starts to shift towards "Electronic Material", and a "Holiday Track".
Though now the focus starts to shift towards "Electronic Material", and a "Holiday Track".
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
It's been 5 days again - bump for more tracks to mix! 
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Bump for a "Winter Holidays" mix, and more variation in terms of song genres.
Don't be shy, please get in touch!
Don't be shy, please get in touch!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Bump for new musical content!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
A bump for more Electronic based music (DnB, Trip Hop).
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Please help us re-fill the song pool.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
A bump for "more music, please".
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14738 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Bump for "seriously - we'd love to get more music content to mix".
Genre doesn't matter, though HipHop, DnB, Pop and Acapella is currently preferred.
Genre doesn't matter, though HipHop, DnB, Pop and Acapella is currently preferred.