Sexism in music: how it bias the way some people judge music.

[fmr]

If this kind of stuff is to be summarily dismissed as 'fashionable political correctness', you must believe that there is no such problem.

Yes I do!

Which means that you have to believe that the real reason there isn't a lot more of female composers to draw from and herald as great music is that the female is inferior;

No, I Don't, and that commentary makes you appear as prejudicial. It's the old dichotomy: Who is not in favour of me is against me

Do you actually believe that all along there was an equal opportunity, women always had the same shot at it? "Political correctness" is not a good sign. It always comes from the "conservative", ie., reactionary standpoint. Maybe you could stand to read the blog, a man wrote it.

OK, let's elaborate a little on my thinking. Staring with Clara Wieck (Clara Schumann, by marriage). History preserves her memory as one of the greatest pianists of her time. And we all know that the status of "great pianist" is by far much more important than the one of "great composer". The former was (and still is) much more revered than the latter. Liszt was famous and enjoyed glory and fortune for being a great pianist, not a great composer. His works were many times dismissed by his contemporaries. Now, if Clara Schumann indeed wrote some pieces that we are missing today, by all means, bring them on. Are those pieces better than the thousands of pieces written by other contemporaries, that are also now forgotten? The blogger didn't told us much, except in the part that she mocked about the way the critique was dismissing the pieces. She didn't even claimed that they deserved more attention,. and are indeed great. She just mocked. And she conveniently left without mention that the same Clara was revered as one of the great pianists of her era (not bad for a victim of "sexism").

More or less at the same time, we had women triumphing in the field of literature: Jane Austen, the Brontë sisters, Mary Shelley (who I believe did not need her famous husband help to triumph), Ann Radcliffe, ... (fill at your will). So, may we conclude that there is sexism in music but not in literature? Or that women writers are harder fighters than those that compose? Or are they given more opportunities? Clearly there is space for thinking here.

Proceeding with the absurd, I would say that, more than sexist, the classical music panorama is racist, since I don't remember a black guy that triumphed as a classical composer, and even as an interpreter there are just a couple of them (maybe Wynton Marsalis). Yet, there are lots of black people triumphing in other genres. And if you look, you will find other musical genres where women also do not seem to be interested on (I don't see many women rappers, if any at all). Sexism too?

Regarding Amy Beach. Is she on pair with her countrymen contemporaries like the well known Charles Ives, Grofe, Copland, Barber, or even Gershwin? I have to confess I don't know nothing from her, but I will listen to her work open mindedly, as I usually do with the works of whatever composer I contact, if anyone care to point me some place where I can listen to her to have an idea.

Finally, you have modernly names like Kaija Saariaho, Pauline Oliveros, Wendy Carlos, Delia Derbyshire, Bebe Barron. How did they do to gain international acknowledge?

To end this rather long post, I'd like to call attention for an excellent article written by Jonathan Foreman and called "The Timothy Hunt Witch Hunt". It's about the 72 year old british biochemist and Nobel Prize Timothy Hunt, and how he was persecuted, banned from all his posts and jobs, just because he had the audacity (or ingenuity) of making a joke about women in public. here is the link: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/arti ... itch-hunt/
It's a very interesting reading, and a good example of how pernicious this "political correctness" thing can be.

[Gamma-UT]

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear. It might have been an idea to familiarise yourself with the article she was criticising before wading in. It's called "There’s a good reason why there are no great female composers". You think when looking at it, "OK Mr Thompson let's hear the reason". However, "the reason" is basically at the level of Andy Pipkin's analysis of opera:



And doesn't get any better. He uses some bad reviews of a contemporary opera to dismiss a composer's work (as though that is worth something – refer back to the reception Rite of Spring got at its premiere), glossing over the reviews for previous work that got a lot more accolades.

It's a terrible article and deserves nothing more than utter scorn. It's not political correctness. It's pointing out the folly of declaring "the reason" without advancing a single valid musicological reason or justification. Were it not in the Spectator, the original blog would just be trolling. Where it is, I guess it's simply fodder for old duffers to nod agreement to.

More or less at the same time, we had women triumphing in the field of literature: Jane Austen, the Brontë sisters, Mary Shelley (who I believe did not need her famous husband help to triumph), Ann Radcliffe, ... (fill at your will). So, may we conclude that there is sexism in music but not in literature? Or that women writers are harder fighters than those that compose? Or are they given more opportunities? Clearly there is space for thinking here.

Here's the thing. Up to the early 20th Century and the beginnings of English Literature as a field for undergraduate study, largely down to the efforts of FR Leavis and TS Eliot, novel writing was considered a mostly vulgar pastime that educated young men were encouraged to avoid – they focused on poetry instead. This meant women with a mind to writing could find a useful outlet for their imagination and were not necessarily discouraged from doing it (although only rarely actively encouraged). Notice that Frankenstein was conceived on a holiday near Lake Geneva with several male poets – only one of the group wound up writing novels.

If you look at the stories of Clara Wieck and Fanny Mendelsohn, you'll notice that they were not encouraged to become composers by those around them. Clara had eight kids to bring up and to deal with hubby's issues. Brother Felix was hardly a major help to Fanny. For example, he famously wrote a letter criticising Fanny, arguing she should concentrate on being a housewife.

Contrast that with the helicopter parenting that went on around composers like Wolfgang Amadeus - without that he'd probably have wound up doing little else that writing a bunch of memorable ditties for the local bawdy house with credits that we'd only know as "Trad. arr. xxx".

Do you see a pattern emerging here?

[fmr]

Here's the thing. Up to the early 20th Century and the beginnings of English Literature as a field for undergraduate study, largely down to the efforts of FR Leavis and TS Eliot, novel writing was considered a mostly vulgar pastime that educated young men were encouraged to avoid – they focused on poetry instead. This meant women with a mind to writing could find a useful outlet for their imagination and were not necessarily discouraged from doing it (although only rarely actively encouraged). Notice that Frankenstein was conceived on a holiday near Lake Geneva with several male poets – only one of the group wound up writing novels.

I'm not familiar with the historical and sociological backgrounds of the english literature panorama of that era, but I find hardly to believe that people like Charles Dickens and Walter Scott think of themselves as inferior to Shelley or Byron. The reasons why Mary wrote Frankenstein are not important to me. She did it, and it was published and was a success.

If you look at the stories of Clara Wieck and Fanny Mendelsohn, you'll notice that they were not encouraged to become composers by those around them. Clara had eight kids to bring up and to deal with hubby's issues. Brother Felix was hardly a major help to Fanny. For example, he famously wrote a letter criticising Fanny, arguing she should concentrate on being a housewife.

Contrast that with the helicopter parenting that went on around composers like Wolfgang Amadeus - without that he'd probably have wound up doing little else that writing a bunch of ditties for the local bawdy house with credits that we'd only know as "Trad. arr. xxx".

Do you see a pattern emerging here?

Yes, it's the pattern of woman condition. It was the same all over the society, but you will hardly translate that to current times (unless you live in some muslim country). Again, music panorama wasn't that different from any other at that time. Sure Clara and Fanny had obligations while wives and mothers, and the society of that era was particularly unforgiving to those that dare to neglect those obligations. Would they be better composers if they were not tied to those obligations? Maybe, but who knows?

Regarding the talent of Wolfgang, are you really convinced that, without his father guidance and protection he would not become a composer of great success? You must be joking.

Regarding the original article being criticised, I became convinced that it doesn't have any merit that deserves me to waste my time reading it. But the fact there is an idiot writing a few lines, doesn't add to the matter. There are idiots in any filed. Did you read the one which link I posted, BTW? I think it's much more important, for the points being debated here. It's about an idiot that destroyed a man's career and reputation (not any man, he happens to be a Nobel Prize and a very important scientist). But this article is of opposite sign - an article by a feminist, attacking a man. I guess that's why it's not important

[Gamma-UT]

Regarding the talent of Wolfgang, are you really convinced that, without his father guidance and protection he would not become a composer of great success?

Yes. He would probably have turned out a good many tunes. But we'd know a lot more about Scarlatti and his contemporaries. His father micromanaged his early career. Take that away and you'd lose the legend of the child prodigy and all that followed it.

You must be joking.

No.

[Gamma-UT]

Did you read the one which link I posted, BTW? I think it's much more important, for the points being debated here. It's about an idiot that destroyed a man's career and reputation (not any man, he happens to be a Nobel Prize and a very important scientist). But this article is of opposite sign - an article by a feminist, attacking a man. I guess that's why it's not important

I'm very familiar with the episode. I've no wish to send this thread to HPC and as the article the the OP cited has nothing to do with PCness and everything to do with pouring scorn on a terrible piece of writing, it's of tenuous relevance in the first place. Want to start a new thread in HPC? Knock yourself out.

[harryupbabble]

Strictly In the case of hard rock music and other similar type of music, it seems better to have a male drummer because males tend to have better biceps than females. I recall the phrase "drums is where the power start from". Led Zeppelin wouldn't be the same with a girly drummer. Testosterone type music requires testosterone. Is it just me or is it not that appealing to see a female drummer (or anything else) that looks like Arnold Swartzenneger in his prime? Heterosexual dood, be honest.

[IncarnateX]

Keep 'em barefoot and pregnant. 6 feets from the kitchen is excape attempt unless it is on the way to the bedroom. Have no idea in what possible world the author thinks that women have time enough time to compose anything. It is not about the quality of compositions but about biologically inherited og highly specialized gender based duties that have to be attented to. Have it ever occured to these feminists that the world may be sexist due to sound non-opressing reasons?














No really. Real problem is that she is right but could be wrong. Right because in the light of history women have been oppressed and their possibilites limited compared to men, just as the case is with race or sexual orientation, thus you can find traces of racist or sexist culture and context in almost every corner of man's existence. She could be wrong in so far as it does not follow from this premise that every difference between men and woman have to be explained with reference to sexism. I know too little about it to conclude anything, but the article was surely funny and entertaining, if not enlightening.

[Septimon]

Strictly In the case of hard rock music and other similar type of music, it seems better to have a male drummer because males tend to have better biceps than females. I recall the phrase "drums is where the power start from". Led Zeppelin wouldn't be the same with a girly drummer. Testosterone type music requires testosterone. Is it just me or is it not that appealing to see a female drummer (or anything else) that looks like Arnold Swartzenneger in his prime? Heterosexual dood, be honest.

sarcasm, right?
honestly: powerfull drum play has nothing to do with either testosterone or biceps size. simply ridiculous

[jancivil]

hit quote instead of edit AGAIN

[jancivil]

The glib dismissal of historical sexism in music is simply ridiculous. For instance, Vienna Philharmonic maintained an all-male membership until 1997. Surely that's no accident.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ilharmonic

Today, a number of orchestras use a screen to protect the identity of the auditioner in order to address this bias. There is more and more scholarly writing on the matter of gender bias in music. Carol Neuls-Bates’ 1996 anthology of source readings, Women in Music, which includes historical writings that describe the origins of instrumental music through the twentieth century, is one of several key works that addresses this imbalance. Karin Pendle’s textbook, Women and Music, is an equally complete source of readings on women in music history. First published in 1980, Unsung: A History of Women in American Music, by Christine Ammer, surveys American female musicians, composers, and conductors and contains a chapter devoted to “Today’s Orchestras, Conductors and Instrumentalists.” Ammer concludes in the 1980s that “when more than half of all music students are female, and more than half of all American women are in the labor force, surely something other than lack of ability must be keeping the representation of women in the top echelons of professional music down to 10 or 15 percent.” 3 Christine Ammer, “Today’s Orchestras, Conductors, and Instrumentalists,” Unsung:A History of Women in American Music, 2nd ed. (Portland, OR: Amadeus Press 2001), 281.

Historical constructions created barriers for women in education and blocked women from orchestral careers. When gender constructions started to change, more women were gradually included in orchestral careers. Conductor Antonia Brico poignantly presented the dilemma of American female musicians in the late 1930s at the first meeting of the “Committee for the Recognition of Women in the Musical Profession,” noting that women could become union members but sexual discrimination at the hiring level made it impossible for them to have orchestral careers. In 1903 the American Federation of Labor merged with the Mutual Musical Protective Union (founded in 1864) and required that the music union accept women members. Although the number of female union members gradually increased, beginning with a few harpists from the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, it took decades for women to gain employment in American symphonies in significant numbers. The slow rate of integration for women is partially due to widespread sexism; women are viewed as less competent than men. For the majority of the twentieth century, a woman’s presence in a symphony was perceived as distracting and threatening within the workplace.

http://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi ... ontext=etd

Sexism in music has been huge all along. Get real.

[jancivil]

If this kind of stuff is to be summarily dismissed as 'fashionable political correctness', you must believe that there is no such problem.

Yes I do!

Which means that you have to believe that the real reason there isn't a lot more of female composers to draw from and herald as great music is that the female is inferior;

No, I Don't, and that commentary makes you appear as prejudicial. It's the old dichotomy: Who is not in favour of me is against me

So are you actually affirming that you do believe there is no problem at all of sexism in music. IF SO what you do not do is show me why there is so little representation. I have now indicated that solid research has been done showing SEVERE sexism in music. Telling me about this particular false dichotomy, or the fallacy of the excluded middle is a non sequitur and kind of absurd.

[ariston]

Strictly In the case of hard rock music and other similar type of music, it seems better to have a male drummer because males tend to have better biceps than females. I recall the phrase "drums is where the power start from". Led Zeppelin wouldn't be the same with a girly drummer. Testosterone type music requires testosterone. Is it just me or is it not that appealing to see a female drummer (or anything else) that looks like Arnold Swartzenneger in his prime? Heterosexual dood, be honest.

sarcasm, right?
honestly: powerfull drum play has nothing to do with either testosterone or biceps size. simply ridiculous

Yeah, I really really hope this guy is kidding. And if he isn't, well, QED.

[jancivil]

Do you see a pattern emerging here?

Yes, it's the pattern of woman condition. It was the same all over the society, but you will hardly translate that to current times (unless you live in some muslim country). Again, music panorama wasn't that different from any other at that time. Sure Clara and Fanny had obligations while wives and mothers, and the society of that era was particularly unforgiving to those that dare to neglect those obligations. Would they be better composers if they were not tied to those obligations? Maybe, but who knows?

So while you acknowledge 'society' demanding acquiescence to strict roles, you maintain there is no problem of sexism at work. Your argumentation is seriously inconsistent.

[jancivil]

Did you read the one which link I posted, BTW? I think it's much more important, for the points being debated here. It's about an idiot that destroyed a man's career and reputation (not any man, he happens to be a Nobel Prize and a very important scientist). But this article is of opposite sign - an article by a feminist, attacking a man. I guess that's why it's not important

I'm very familiar with the episode. I've no wish to send this thread to HPC and as the article the the OP cited has nothing to do with PCness and everything to do with pouring scorn on a terrible piece of writing, it's of tenuous relevance in the first place. Want to start a new thread in HPC? Knock yourself out.

This is amazing. Fernando hasn't really quite read it, but he's sure the real deal there is "an article by a feminist, attacking a man.". Literally I laugh loud and hard at that. So the move is to locate a single example and make that the focus of the thread, as if to obliterate the actual whole history of sexism in music. That is so utterly desperate. Cognitive Dissonance rules ok.

[jancivil]

Strictly In the case of hard rock music and other similar type of music, it seems better to have a male drummer because males tend to have better biceps than females. I recall the phrase "drums is where the power start from". Led Zeppelin wouldn't be the same with a girly drummer. Testosterone type music requires testosterone. Is it just me or is it not that appealing to see a female drummer (or anything else) that looks like Arnold Swartzenneger in his prime? Heterosexual dood, be honest.

This seems very gay to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that.