Need Direction With Scales/Chords

[AB69]

I know it is in E flat minor scale but I can't pinpoint the exact notes. I think it is something like F#, D#, A#, but can't really get anything else.

You might be surprised to hear that there's no D# in Eb minor. Eb minor contains an Eb (the name kinda gives it away). It also contains Bb an Gb. /smartalecmode

If you want to figure out chords, you need to just sit down and keep at it until you get there. Grab a guitar or keyboard and play along until it sounds right.

Actually Eb Minor has Gb Major as its relative major, so the notes included in the Eb Minor scale are Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb and Db. (if it is indeed in the key of Eb Minor) So, take those notes from the scales and try to play the chords where there are chord changes in the song. Obviously, Eb Minor will be a chord heard often as it's the i chord. I'm guessing there are a number of Ab Minor (iv chords) and Bb Minor chords (v) in there as well.

How is A minor a IV to the E?

I'm so confused...

[AB69]

D# = Eb (same note) but since it is in a key of Ebm let's keep it that way, no sharps!

Ebm = (these notes) Eb-G-Bb
Db(C#) = Db-F-Ab
Bb(A#) = Bb-D-F

I haven't listened yet but B doesn't belong very well in an Ebm key so I assumed Bb since it's the 5 chord. If it is minor then make it Bb-Db-F as minor chords have a b3rd note when compared to major chords. Sorry, I'm at work and don't have a keyboard or I'd transcribe this for you. I'm going off the last post by zethus909.

I tried this, it's closer but still not there.

The Eb-G-Bb seems kind of close but the Db (C#) sounds off. What is Db? There is no Db on the piano roll so i'm assuming Db is equivalent to another note which is...?

[jancivil]

When I go from D# to C# it sounds wrong

Please forgive my lack of knowledge

But when you say I, you mean I meaning the first note (tonic) of the chord right?

So since this starts in E or D#, then E/D# is my I right? So from my I, do I go up VII notes up or down?

Is this the way I am suppose to interpret the I, VII, VI, VII ???

The thing is, when I use the 2nd note (the VII), along with the E/D#, it doesn't sound right...

someone gave you Eb G Bb for the i chord for E flat minor. That is not correct, it's Eb Gb Bb. Same as D# F# A#. I don't know where the E without a flat came from. Let's lose that.

But. Let's go with key of D sharp minor for the moment since your visual on the piano roll is strictly from sharps*. The i chord (the tonic's chord) of key of D sharp minor is D#m. (keys have tonics; chords have roots) These chords are basic triads, I gather. Build by thirds: D#, F#, A#. So, not completely sure but your last sentence looks like you're saying that you added C# to some type of D# chord.

But yes, you count to 7 in the scale for the VII chord. D# = 1, E# = 2, so forth to C# = 7. In this music, likely that it actually lies a second below the i, up 7 is rather a large leap. Transpose down an octave. So that's D# F# A# and now a step down (interval of a second) to VII, C# E# G#. VI same distance down again, to B D# F#.

*: No, there aren't any flats on the piano roll. That's just how it is. You don't have E# in the piano roll either. This problem reveals the piano roll as insufficient as your whole toolbox for this job.

[jancivil]

Notes of key of D# minor: D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B, C#. Notes of key of Eb minor: Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db. So you see no E# (nor Cb) on the piano roll. However these are the notes' names within their key. You don't have F in D# minor because the step up, the interval of a second up, from any D must be some form of E. D to F, regardless, is only ever the interval of a third (D# to F is in fact a diminished third, which is rare. The correct spelling according to key - in simple, straight alphabetics - indicates the interval major second: E#). A seven note scale has seven letter names; Key of D# minor with F has two Fs in it, six letter names, one of them altered. That's not what is done. So you saw the statement 'B doesn't go with key of Eb minor'. Well, Cb does, it's number 6; triad on 6 is known as VI.

[sjm]

I honestly don't understand at all

What does "Chords given above are i, VII, VI, VII," even mean?
[stuff]

In a very basic nutshell... you have a song in either Ebm or D#m (doesn't matter which).

The corresponding notes in those are:

Code: Select all

Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
D# E# F# G# A# B C#

Each letter only occurs one. There is only one A, one E, one G etc.

Now each of these letters/notes can be assigned a number from 1 to 7:

Code: Select all

Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
D# E# F# G# A# B C#
1  2  3  4  5  6  7

If you are in A, A=1, B=2, C=3 etc. i.e. each letter just corresponds to its place in the alphabet. Even if you are in Ab or A#, the 2 will be some kind of B (B, Bb or B#), the 3 some kind of C (C, Cb or C#).
If you are in G, then G=1 and everything shifts accordingly (A=2 etc.).

The roman numerals you saw are shorthand for representing chords based on the note numbers. In general (there are various conventions) upper case = major chord, lower case = minor chord.

Referring to chord progressions in the form I - V - vi -IV etc. means the key doesn't matter - you are only focusing on the relative intervals, i.e. the relationship between the chords, not the notes themselves. In modern Western music, which uses equal temparement, the pitch interval between any two semitones is always equal - whether you go C-C# or A-A# doesn't matter, the interval sounds the same, even if the pitches are different. This wasn't always the case and it doesn't apply to all music systems.

Anyway, back in topic. The basic chords in major are as follows*:
I ii iii IV V vi vii-

In other words, the first chord is major, then two minors, then two majors, a minor and a diminshed chord.

For minor is much the same, but everything is shifted a bit:
i ii- III iv v VI VII

We essentially have started from what was the 6th chord in major (vi), making that our starting point, i.e. 1 (i). Notice how the order of the chords is otherwise the same.

So, let's go back to your scale:

Code: Select all

Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
D# E# F# G# A# B C#
1  2  3  4  5  6  7

It's a minor scale, so we get the following chords based on what's listed above (i ii- III iv v VI VII):

Code: Select all

Ebm F- Gb Abm Bbm Cb Db
D#m E#- F# G#m A#m B C#
i  ii- III iv  v  VI VII

So when Zethus says:

The progression is D#m | C# | B | B | C# |D#m
In the minor key context, it descends from the i to the VII to VI..then VI VII i

You got it in both forms - the actual chords in the song and the underlying progression.


To find out the notes in a chord and how chords are formed, I suggest a google seach. There's more than enough material that covers this better than we can.

*I don't know nor care to know how to enter a degree symbol

[zethus909]

I tried this, it's closer but still not there.

yea youre right...the chords i orignally gave are a bit off tonally (good ear AB69!!!!!)...i havent listened to the song as much as you though so...
after listening to the song again....i will expand on the progression......the progression could be better expressed using these chords

using these chords

D#m F# Bsus2
B C#sus2 D#m

so play the D#m chord....but on your piano...when you play the F# chord, play it an octave lower..so play it to the left of the D#m chord below it not above it....
https://soundcloud.com/inversound/if-we ... it/s-xqfcz

[Atza]

The way I figure chords is that I just figure bass part and it usually gives you chords. I'm not talking jazz of course

[jancivil]

What happens when you encounter a chord where the bass note is not the root of the chord? Thanks for sharing.

[Atza]

What happens when you encounter a chord where the bass note is not the root of the chord? Thanks for sharing.

In pop music that's rarely the case. And if it happens the bass note is either passing note that resolves to root or is usualy very easy to figure out what root bass note is.
Jazz and complicated genres are different story

[Roman Empire]

What happens when you encounter a chord where the bass note is not the root of the chord? Thanks for sharing.

In pop music that's rarely the case. And if it happens the bass note is either passing note that resolves to root or is usualy very easy to figure out what root bass note is.
Jazz and complicated genres are different story

This actually happends in aLOT of popmusic. Perhaps not in the most recent Gagastylestuff. but a few songs from the 70s and 80s quickly come to mind: Yessir I can boogie by Bachara, Ebony and Ivory (Mccartney) and some of the Chicago ballads from the 80s. I consider those pop songs, as to me the rock-label is something that automatically triggers my minds ACDC-box, and that´s not where you´ll be digging to find alot of off-root-basstone chords.
The more you hear them, analyze them and play with them, the more easily you´ll recognize them and know when to use them right. You could always put a lowpassfilter on a song to easily hear the bass and find out what it´s doing.

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[jancivil]

What happens when you encounter a chord where the bass note is not the root of the chord? Thanks for sharing.

In pop music that's rarely the case. And if it happens the bass note is either passing note that resolves to root or is usualy very easy to figure out what root bass note is.
Jazz and complicated genres are different story

In inversions of chords, the root is not the bass note. 'to figure out what root bass note is' is not really a meaningful reply to the question. My experience with fake books for pop songs over a wide range of yrs was that 'slash chords' were not so uncommon really. So when we see C/E it's first inversion C chord.
http://popmusictheory.com/first-inversion-katy-perrys/

Sometimes more sophisticated things happen, for example F/Bb (a sort of 9th chord).

[Roman Empire]

What happens when you encounter a chord where the bass note is not the root of the chord? Thanks for sharing.

In pop music that's rarely the case. And if it happens the bass note is either passing note that resolves to root or is usualy very easy to figure out what root bass note is.
Jazz and complicated genres are different story

In inversions of chords, the root is not the bass note. 'to figure out what root bass note is' is not really a meaningful reply to the question. My experience with fake books for pop songs over a wide range of yrs was that 'slash chords' were not so uncommon really. So when we see C/E it's first inversion C chord.
http://popmusictheory.com/first-inversion-katy-perrys/

Sometimes more sophisticated things happen, for example F/Bb (a sort of 9th chord).

Cool link, what a shame they only discuss modern pop there but at least some people who understand the importance of theoretical knowledge to put your soul into your compositions.

Best Regards

Roman Empire