Here is a nice program which shows you Chords from scale notes:
chords and double harmonic scales
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- KVRist
- 149 posts since 28 Sep, 2006
Its easiest to find what chords can be formed from scale tones. Like C major gives you C,Dmin,Emin,F,G,Amin...and everything in between like Cmaj7,Dmin7,...
Here is a nice program which shows you Chords from scale notes:
Here is a nice program which shows you Chords from scale notes:
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
as to quartal derivations and exotic scales, I experimented with stacking a single construction for parallel movement, every note of the scale with that stack. I had detected this out of Zappa music. So that takes you outside, and might be something to check out. Out of this one I like Db G C F. Mixing aug.4th and P4ths. I think the idea to discard is trying to glom 'chord progression/tonal harmony' onto this 'exotic' basic material is all.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 217 posts since 23 Nov, 2014
Oh, forgot to mention, some time ago I realized that using a two note chord with the root note and it's perfect fifth above it fits perfectly on 5 of the 7 notes in the double harmonic scale I was using, and it doesn't sound too dissonant if it falls on one of the two that don't. So ya, that works lol. Another Indian scale that's really similar acted the exact same way with the perfect fifths.
Since then I've used it sparingly as 'full chords' for backing stuff like choirs and the like but it's a good reference point for broken chords or making nice sounding melodies I've found. So I could hit a note, then a few notes later hit it's perfect fifth in a way that makes both of those notes either stick out or compliment what is going on between them or right after or before them. It's also good for finding a basis for some nice psytrance arpeggios.
Apparently some Thaats corresponds to European Church modes, which really interested me. Seven scales all with seven notes >.> I like when numbers do that lol. So being the same things, obviously the scales can transfer over but at that point it's not longer "exotic" unless written or played in the Indian style which would mean basically no chords among other things (like their most important/stressed notes ect and I don't know what all else).
So uh, ya funny how things in different cultures can line up perfectly the same sometimes, eh?
Since then I've used it sparingly as 'full chords' for backing stuff like choirs and the like but it's a good reference point for broken chords or making nice sounding melodies I've found. So I could hit a note, then a few notes later hit it's perfect fifth in a way that makes both of those notes either stick out or compliment what is going on between them or right after or before them. It's also good for finding a basis for some nice psytrance arpeggios.
Apparently some Thaats corresponds to European Church modes, which really interested me. Seven scales all with seven notes >.> I like when numbers do that lol. So being the same things, obviously the scales can transfer over but at that point it's not longer "exotic" unless written or played in the Indian style which would mean basically no chords among other things (like their most important/stressed notes ect and I don't know what all else).
So uh, ya funny how things in different cultures can line up perfectly the same sometimes, eh?
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Actually the ICM 'theory' as elucidated by Bhatkande is fairly recent. So "Bilaval Thaat" in correspondence with Ionian is no accident, it's straight up copping western influence. So you'll see a youtube page titled such as "In the western mode" for Bilaval raag.
So according to this modern theory, Bhatkande calls Bilaval the basic of all ten thaats, or the "shuddah". From here notes are considered sharp or flat.
The southern Indian music (Carnatic) is very differently organized. And (as per scalar material at least; a strong northern exponent may argue their _music_ is far more detailed) far more detailed. I'm going to touch on it as it is a new way of looking at scales and one can locate some new things in it.
72 Melakartas. This method is said to date to ca 1550. This breaks down into scales with 'Shuddha Madhyama' and 'Prati Madhyama'. Natural 4 and sharp 4. "There are three types each of Rishabha, Gandhara, Dhaivata and Nishada." (IE: 2, 3, 6 & 7) "There are two types of Madhyama" (4), while Panchama (5) and Shadja (tonic) are invariant.
The first, basic (of the first 36 melakartas) looks like this (from C for convenience): C Db, Ebb, F, G, Ab, Bbb, C. So there's the flattest possible version of the most alterable notes and the shuddha version of 4. This is more or less their 'shuddha'. Essentially they 'sharpen' from here starting with 7, "Nishada". These names abbreviate to Sa, Ri, Ga, Dha and Ni. More or less same words for the North, Hindustani. (Interestingly the northern music is quite influenced through contact with Muslim musicians through the Mughal courts (royal patronage of musicians) - they did not go into the south - while it's typical for the southern, Carnatic exponent to feature the red dot on the forehead signifying Hinduism.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melakarta ... arta_ragas
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/M151/Music_of_India4.html
Bhatkande is supposed to have curated 32, based in scholarship of the Melakarta but decided these 10 were what's important. If you get into comparison, you can get into fights. Albeit the musicians I have talked to have been reticent or disinterested in theory, a more oral tradition certainly in the north than a written one.
So according to this modern theory, Bhatkande calls Bilaval the basic of all ten thaats, or the "shuddah". From here notes are considered sharp or flat.
The southern Indian music (Carnatic) is very differently organized. And (as per scalar material at least; a strong northern exponent may argue their _music_ is far more detailed) far more detailed. I'm going to touch on it as it is a new way of looking at scales and one can locate some new things in it.
72 Melakartas. This method is said to date to ca 1550. This breaks down into scales with 'Shuddha Madhyama' and 'Prati Madhyama'. Natural 4 and sharp 4. "There are three types each of Rishabha, Gandhara, Dhaivata and Nishada." (IE: 2, 3, 6 & 7) "There are two types of Madhyama" (4), while Panchama (5) and Shadja (tonic) are invariant.
The first, basic (of the first 36 melakartas) looks like this (from C for convenience): C Db, Ebb, F, G, Ab, Bbb, C. So there's the flattest possible version of the most alterable notes and the shuddha version of 4. This is more or less their 'shuddha'. Essentially they 'sharpen' from here starting with 7, "Nishada". These names abbreviate to Sa, Ri, Ga, Dha and Ni. More or less same words for the North, Hindustani. (Interestingly the northern music is quite influenced through contact with Muslim musicians through the Mughal courts (royal patronage of musicians) - they did not go into the south - while it's typical for the southern, Carnatic exponent to feature the red dot on the forehead signifying Hinduism.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melakarta ... arta_ragas
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/M151/Music_of_India4.html
Bhatkande is supposed to have curated 32, based in scholarship of the Melakarta but decided these 10 were what's important. If you get into comparison, you can get into fights. Albeit the musicians I have talked to have been reticent or disinterested in theory, a more oral tradition certainly in the north than a written one.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Hindustani raga is all about the zigzag or broken line (vakra), ie., the actual composition is an articulated/manipulated derived (janya) raga down from the parent raga (ie., thaat). So composition of a raga defines ascending and descending moves specifically. The rasa, or mood, feel of one is founded in the shape here* according to the chosen tones. A lot of raga are pentatonic or hexatonic while the parent is always heptatonic. Then there's intonation. Particularly the sarod has much detail in how to intone for emotional effect.
But take say Bilaval, it can reasonably be said to carry western influence, but it is not all that alike to major scale music. The 'leading tone' aspect for starters, it may or may not be a thing. Even where say 6, 7, 8 (dha ni Sa, like la ti do) is prescribed, the ^7 may be so dwelled on subsequently that 'leading' tone just isn't it. Raag Alhaiya Bilawal describes 6 b7 6 after 8 ^7 6 5 (6, Dha is vadi, next in weight to Sa typically; yet not prolonged or 'final'). The (derived, 'janya' or 'child' as opposed to thaat, parent) raga will have its prescribed vakra as guide.
(*: "The following combinations are essential and considered to be the very life and soul of the Raag...")
But take say Bilaval, it can reasonably be said to carry western influence, but it is not all that alike to major scale music. The 'leading tone' aspect for starters, it may or may not be a thing. Even where say 6, 7, 8 (dha ni Sa, like la ti do) is prescribed, the ^7 may be so dwelled on subsequently that 'leading' tone just isn't it. Raag Alhaiya Bilawal describes 6 b7 6 after 8 ^7 6 5 (6, Dha is vadi, next in weight to Sa typically; yet not prolonged or 'final'). The (derived, 'janya' or 'child' as opposed to thaat, parent) raga will have its prescribed vakra as guide.
(*: "The following combinations are essential and considered to be the very life and soul of the Raag...")