Hi,
I'm actually reading the "Music Theory for Computer Musicians" and I have a question about triads.
The book says (Chapter 8 ) :
"Triads occur when three different notes are sounded simultaneously."
"In modern music there is only one rule when it comes to the use of sonorities: Any note may be combined with any other note."
The book only focuses on triads built on root + third + fifth - OK
For example, C Major, Chord I is C E G but if I use for example C F G, C E A or C D E what is the name of my chord?
Thanks.
Question about triads
-
- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
It has to be that in order to be a triad.awaky wrote:
The book only focuses on triads built on root + third + fifth - OK
C E A is a triad. I'd prefer to leave it to you to sort out how. NB: Triads are three-note vertical constructions built of thirds. C F G & C D E are not in themselves triads. The former might in context be a triad with a tone altered, then the names have to do with that. If you saw 'Csus4' in a fake book or whatever sheet music for say a pop tune, what's asked for is "C F G" essentially. There is a '4' in 3's place. Although the thought behind "C F G" does not absolutely have to be that; compare <F G C>, and <G C F>.awaky wrote:
For example, C Major, Chord I is C E G but if I use for example C F G, C E A or C D E what is the name of my chord?
Other people here will perhaps type more than this at you.
-
- KVRist
- 77 posts since 27 Nov, 2011 from Norway
awaky, there are different schools, and the answer u get might depend on the school.
In terms of 3rds.. this is how I think about this..
1. try to reorder the sequence
2. fill in 3rds
C F G (reordered) is the same as F C G. Filling in 3rds, I get F -A- C -E- G. That is a F9. The A might be wrong though.. could be a Ab (depending on mode/scale/key). If Ab then the chord is Fm9. The added E is also uncertain, might be Eb.
C E A is the same as A C E. The chord is Am.
C D E - I would consider this: C E D, then (fill in) C E G H (or Bb) D. The chord is C9.
It might be wrong. IDK. I usually dont think of chords separately like this, but consider them in the context of the key and chords around them.
In terms of 3rds.. this is how I think about this..
1. try to reorder the sequence
2. fill in 3rds
C F G (reordered) is the same as F C G. Filling in 3rds, I get F -A- C -E- G. That is a F9. The A might be wrong though.. could be a Ab (depending on mode/scale/key). If Ab then the chord is Fm9. The added E is also uncertain, might be Eb.
C E A is the same as A C E. The chord is Am.
C D E - I would consider this: C E D, then (fill in) C E G H (or Bb) D. The chord is C9.
It might be wrong. IDK. I usually dont think of chords separately like this, but consider them in the context of the key and chords around them.
My music :
http://soundcloud.com/dzah
http://soundcloud.com/dzah
-
- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Here are two different-sounding things, though, isn't it.DzAH wrote:
C F G (reordered) is the same as F C G.
It's all good, this is all food for thought. It really does have to be considered contextually, all music 'theory' does.DzAH wrote: Filling in 3rds, I get F -A- C -E- G. That is a F9. The A might be wrong though.. could be a Ab (depending on mode/scale/key). If Ab then the chord is Fm9. The added E is also uncertain, might be Eb.
C E A is the same as A C E. The chord is Am.
C D E - I would consider this: C E D, then (fill in) C E G H (or Bb) D. The chord is C9.
It might be wrong. IDK. I usually dont think of chords separately like this, but consider them in the context of the key and chords around them.
C F G maybe means Csus4, it may resemble/relate to F G C ('Fsus2'). G may be a choice there instead of A, the third (and you may just call it 'F2'). The OP states this book only concerns itself with actual triads and poses two things which aren't triads per se. So, I can't yet know where the actual interest lies, but there is no law against vertical constructs via intervals other than thirds. C D E, consecutive major seconds. You can go with that, why not. C F G; cf. G C F. Fourths. Frank Zappa showed his high school theory teacher a record, "What is going on here, what is this thing I like?" And it was stacking fourths. I had the same moment of recognition when Webb Wiggins demonstrated the concept in Music Theory 101. Aha, THAT thing!
Then, F C G is stacking fifths. There is the correspondence with tertial structures, you notice the 9th and went with it, why not. But you could do F C G and on top of this add Ab Eb Bb. Yes, there's an Fm7 9 11 if you like, but its voiced in this open manner. You can keep at it: F C G, Ab Eb Bb, B F# C#, D A E. And the full chromatic is revealed, but it has this open sound of the fifths. I remember a guy at school doing 'name this chord' and he did perfect fifths in a stack. I knew what the notes were but I called it according to thirds, he said 'but it's simply fifths', another AHA moment.
-
- KVRist
- 149 posts since 28 Sep, 2006
Well your magazin is obviously trying to be clever. Its long established what triad is. You may go to wikipedia and get proper answer to simple question as that.
-
- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
it's such a fine line between stupid and clever
It actually does say that "Triads occur when three different notes are sounded simultaneously." in Chapter 8, that's a straight quote. There is a small chapter headed "Triadic Harmony" which arrives short of a definition of 'triadic'... and a couple pages later we get that definition. I would fire that book for that, that is not a true statement.
wiki say: In music, a triad is a set of three notes that can be stacked in thirds. The term "harmonic triad" was coined by Johannes Lippius in his "Synopsis musicae novae" (1612).
It actually does say that "Triads occur when three different notes are sounded simultaneously." in Chapter 8, that's a straight quote. There is a small chapter headed "Triadic Harmony" which arrives short of a definition of 'triadic'... and a couple pages later we get that definition. I would fire that book for that, that is not a true statement.
wiki say: In music, a triad is a set of three notes that can be stacked in thirds. The term "harmonic triad" was coined by Johannes Lippius in his "Synopsis musicae novae" (1612).
-
- KVRist
- 164 posts since 4 Dec, 2006
Yeah, the term "triad" implies 3rd-based chord construction.
The modern term normally applied to a simultaneity of any three pitches regardless of its intervallic construction is "trichord."
The modern term normally applied to a simultaneity of any three pitches regardless of its intervallic construction is "trichord."
-
- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Interesting, I found this (Wiki):
When stacked in thirds, the triad's members, from lowest pitched tone to highest, are called:[1]
the root
the third – its interval above the root being a minor third (three semitones) or a major third (four semitones)
the fifth – its interval above the third being a minor third or a major third, hence its interval above the root being a diminished fifth (six semitones), perfect fifth (seven semitones), or augmented fifth (eight semitones).
Such chords are referred to as triadic.
Some twentieth-century theorists, notably Howard Hanson[2] and Carlton Gamer,[3] expand the term to refer to any combination of three different pitches, regardless of the intervals amongst them. The word used by other theorists for this more general concept is "trichord".[4] Others, notably Allen Forte, use the term to refer to combinations apparently stacked of other intervals, as in "quartal triad".[5]
Who knew.
I remember 'trichord' as derived from (the modern sense of the word) <tetrachord> and in terms of set theory for analysis of post-tonal *serial* musics, eg., Milton Babbit and "combinatorial": "three-note, four-note, and six-note segments of a twelve-tone row, which he calls, respectively, trichords, tetrachords, and hexachords, extending the traditional sense of the terms and retaining their implication of contiguity".
THEN: Allen Forte occasionally makes informal use of the term trichord (Forte 1973, 124 and 126) to mean what he usually calls "sets of three elements" (Forte 1973, 3, 23, 27, and 47), and other theorists (notably including Howard Hanson 1960,[page needed] and Carlton Gamer 1967, 37, 46, 50–52), mean by the term triad, a three-note pitch collection which is not necessarily a contiguous segment of a scale or a tone row and not necessarily (in twentieth-century music) tertian or diatonic either.[citation needed]
Which I don't particularly recall encountering. I do recall Hanson as a somewhat divisive figure even in the late 1970's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichord
When stacked in thirds, the triad's members, from lowest pitched tone to highest, are called:[1]
the root
the third – its interval above the root being a minor third (three semitones) or a major third (four semitones)
the fifth – its interval above the third being a minor third or a major third, hence its interval above the root being a diminished fifth (six semitones), perfect fifth (seven semitones), or augmented fifth (eight semitones).
Such chords are referred to as triadic.
Some twentieth-century theorists, notably Howard Hanson[2] and Carlton Gamer,[3] expand the term to refer to any combination of three different pitches, regardless of the intervals amongst them. The word used by other theorists for this more general concept is "trichord".[4] Others, notably Allen Forte, use the term to refer to combinations apparently stacked of other intervals, as in "quartal triad".[5]
Who knew.
I remember 'trichord' as derived from (the modern sense of the word) <tetrachord> and in terms of set theory for analysis of post-tonal *serial* musics, eg., Milton Babbit and "combinatorial": "three-note, four-note, and six-note segments of a twelve-tone row, which he calls, respectively, trichords, tetrachords, and hexachords, extending the traditional sense of the terms and retaining their implication of contiguity".
THEN: Allen Forte occasionally makes informal use of the term trichord (Forte 1973, 124 and 126) to mean what he usually calls "sets of three elements" (Forte 1973, 3, 23, 27, and 47), and other theorists (notably including Howard Hanson 1960,[page needed] and Carlton Gamer 1967, 37, 46, 50–52), mean by the term triad, a three-note pitch collection which is not necessarily a contiguous segment of a scale or a tone row and not necessarily (in twentieth-century music) tertian or diatonic either.[citation needed]
Which I don't particularly recall encountering. I do recall Hanson as a somewhat divisive figure even in the late 1970's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichord