One Synth Challenge #80: MUX by MuTools (Voting Over, preliminary results in)

[wagtunes]

Wag -- re: mixing, while having good ears and accurate monitors are important, using your meters is also really important and can help make your sound more polished. Before everyone flips out, I'm not saying you can make a good mix if you're deaf and only watch the meters, but along with listening, you have to watch the relative levels of your tracks, solo your tracks and use dynamic compression and EQ appropriately, and keep an eye on a frequency analyzer looking at your full mix, you will clearly see if something is jumping out, or if an important part is not registering where it should. Trust me, at 59 yrs old my hearing is not what it used to be but I try to be careful and compensate where I can and I think my mixes are ok.

Okay, now you're talking about using equipment that I am just not that good with yet and I'm sure it shows because yes, I do have EQ on everything and checked my levels the best I could. I don't know how to actually look at everything that's playing at one time and pick out the track that's out of place. I wouldn't even know what to look for.

So yes, THIS is one area where I desperately need training, music production, mixing, whatever you want to call it. I did take a course online. I thought it would be better than it was but it wasn't. Essentially they said, "This is an EQ. This is what it does." But they didn't really get into cleaning up mixes or anything like that. It was very basic stuff that was very little help to me.

So telling me to look at meters and whatever doesn't help me because I don't know what to look at. I do everything by ear which, or me, is just begging for disaster.

I need to go to a professional mixing school (if such an animal exists) and learn the whole thing. Unfortunately, that also costs a lot of money that I don't have. I'd love to get an internship at a local studio if I could but there are none in my area.

In short, I need training. I can't do this on my own.

[wagtunes]

Wag -- re: mixing, while having good ears and accurate monitors are important, using your meters is also really important and can help make your sound more polished. Before everyone flips out, I'm not saying you can make a good mix if you're deaf and only watch the meters, but along with listening, you have to watch the relative levels of your tracks, solo your tracks and use dynamic compression and EQ appropriately, and keep an eye on a frequency analyzer looking at your full mix, you will clearly see if something is jumping out, or if an important part is not registering where it should. Trust me, at 59 yrs old my hearing is not what it used to be but I try to be careful and compensate where I can and I think my mixes are ok.

I literally am a spectral and amplitude analyzer hugger It's ok to mix visually - in fact it helps you learn a LOT about sounds.

See, you're speaking Greek to me. I don't know what that stuff is and I obviously don't know how to use it.

[z.prime]

It's ok to mix visually - in fact it helps you learn a LOT about sounds.

I mix naked. Take THAT visual imagery.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Why is it so hard to believe that some people are just not going to be good at certain things?

it isn't. was just seeing how far you'd gone towards improving

Have you mastered everything you've ever learned in your life? Maybe you have.

not even close, but i aint gonna whine about it. i'll also happily take direction, despite being a musician of some description for about 34 years. perhaps my not having much at all in the way of training means i don't have the same expectations of myself.

At least I can acknowledge my shortcomings

i'll say

look, it's simple. play to your strengths, improve what you can. seek help (quantisation, and other daw tools, is a good place start), training, and advice for what you cannot do

[wagtunes]

Why is it so hard to believe that some people are just not going to be good at certain things?

it isn't. was just seeing how far you'd gone towards improving

Have you mastered everything you've ever learned in your life? Maybe you have.

not even close, but i aint gonna whine about it. i'll also happily take direction, despite being a musician of some description for about 34 years. perhaps my not having much at all in the way of training means i don't have the same expectations of myself.

At least I can acknowledge my shortcomings

i'll say

look, it's simple. play to your strengths, improve what you can. seek help (quantisation, and other daw tools, is a good place start), training, and advice for what you cannot do

Okay, so how do I check for overlapping frequencies and then, after I find them, what do I do with them? I'm referring to what somebody said I need to do with the two bass sounds playing together. I'm assuming that since they're both bass sounds they're going to have overlapping frequencies. So what do I do? For that matter, why is that bad? I'm not hearing anything horribly wrong except maybe I can tell there are two bass sounds playing together. Should I not be able to do that?

What exactly is it I'm supposed to be achieving here?

[bluerobot]

My submission... Mux Aeterna!

10 Mux Instruments in Mulab on OS X.

MuFx used: MuEcho, MuVerb, Stereo Flanger, Hipass Filter, Crusher.

VST Fx used: IVGI, SonEQ, DCAMFreeComp, Voxengo OldSkool Reverb, TDL Feedback Compressor II, LoudMax, Voxengo SPAN.

https://soundcloud.com/bluerobotmusic/mux-aeterna

[ontrackp]

Wag -- re: mixing, while having good ears and accurate monitors are important, using your meters is also really important and can help make your sound more polished. Before everyone flips out, I'm not saying you can make a good mix if you're deaf and only watch the meters, but along with listening, you have to watch the relative levels of your tracks, solo your tracks and use dynamic compression and EQ appropriately, and keep an eye on a frequency analyzer looking at your full mix, you will clearly see if something is jumping out, or if an important part is not registering where it should. Trust me, at 59 yrs old my hearing is not what it used to be but I try to be careful and compensate where I can and I think my mixes are ok.

Okay, now you're talking about using equipment that I am just not that good with yet and I'm sure it shows because yes, I do have EQ on everything and checked my levels the best I could. I don't know how to actually look at everything that's playing at one time and pick out the track that's out of place. I wouldn't even know what to look for.

So yes, THIS is one area where I desperately need training, music production, mixing, whatever you want to call it. I did take a course online. I thought it would be better than it was but it wasn't. Essentially they said, "This is an EQ. This is what it does." But they didn't really get into cleaning up mixes or anything like that. It was very basic stuff that was very little help to me.

So telling me to look at meters and whatever doesn't help me because I don't know what to look at. I do everything by ear which, or me, is just begging for disaster.

I need to go to a professional mixing school (if such an animal exists) and learn the whole thing. Unfortunately, that also costs a lot of money that I don't have. I'd love to get an internship at a local studio if I could but there are none in my area.

In short, I need training. I can't do this on my own.

OK. The challenge here is a handful of mixing tips that will help you in one (hopefully) brief post:

1) Take all the EQ off of everything.
2) Solo your tracks one at a time and look at the meters. Put your fader up to 0. If you're into the red then back off the level in the synth as you're probably overdriving something on the way in. Even with DAW headroom, it's still a good idea to not be slamming any levels. If the meter is really low than increase the gain from the synth.
3) Decide if you need EQ -- this is subjective and simply has to do if you like the sound or think it needs to be brighter, duller, edgier, etc... Often it's better to take away than to add.
4) Decide if the track needs dynamic compression. Also very subjective, but if the sound is going from really soft to really loud or the meter is jumping around like crazy chances are a little compression can help. Use presets as a starting point and don't over compress. There are a million compression tutorials on YouTube, find one for the compressor that you use in your DAW. If you want to use compression to make the drums punchier use the presets -- (this advice is based on you saying you don't understand how to set up compression).
5) Decide if the the compression has affected the sound so you need to EQ it again. Try not to do this as you can get into an over-processing situation, but sometimes a little tweak post-compressor can help in the mix. You can also hold off and do this during mixing.

After you've solo'd everything and like how each track sounds individually and that the levels are all where they should be, then build your mix.

Start with drums and bass. Listen to the kick and bass together -- you may have to tweak the eq to make space. This is easy -- you can notch one and boost the other. If you want the kick to be bottom heavy then roll off below 80hz on the bass and add a little at 60hz on the kick. For other instruments you can literally make space simply by notching one frequency in a narrow range and boosting the same range on another instrument. You only need a few db -- don't go crazy. Less is more. Some people use sidechaining so the kick pushes the bass back when it plays and that's ok, but not a necessary step. If you're not comfortable with doing that, then don't do it!

Use the stereo field. Mid-range bkgd instruments can be panned slightly to make space. Hi Hat and other percussion sounds can be panned also to create your stereo field.

Try to use sounds that have their own acoustic space. Everything should have an individual timbre that doesn't interfere with other sounds.

When bringing up the melody, do it slowly. Once you think it's loud enough start backing it off until you barely hear it, then bring it up just a little at a time. It just has to read, it should not be 6db louder than everything else. And if you're not sure where it's reading on your spectral monitor, just solo it and you'll see exactly where it is.

This also applies to any important part. Bring it up to a good level, then back it off a little until it starts to go away. Then bring it back. Nothing should stick out unless you are deliberately making a statement with a sound.

Use groups. And you can use bus compression on groups (for instance all the pads and strings can be grouped and have some light compression, it will help them be cohesive). For instance, if I have a hi hat and then some other fast percussion like congas, shakers, etc.. I will group them all together and use some light compression and watch the the group fader meter to help make sure the stereo field is consistent.

Don't use tons of different reverbs. EQ the low and hi end of the reverb so it doesn't clog up the acoustic space in the track (just trim in the bottom and top EQ on the reverb return). Try to put as many things as possible in the same reverb space -- it will tie your mix together.

When you have the mix ready listen down without the lead instruments -- it should still sound good!

Your final mix bus chain should be as simple as possible. Don't use a multi-band compressor unless you either a) find a preset that you think sounds great, or b) you know what you're doing. Overall mix EQ should be super subtle. The last step is your limiter which can raise the overall level and provide a little peak reduction. Little is the operative word -- you should not see more than 2 or 3 db at most. There's all kinds of other stuff -- stereo field expanders, channel strips, etc.... but only use what you feel comfortable with. Again, less is more and start with the presets built into your DAW -- someone has thought them out and they are a great starting point.

That's it. 30 years of mixing experience in a few hundred words. Don't sweat it, I'm sure you know more than you think you do!

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Why is it so hard to believe that some people are just not going to be good at certain things?

it isn't. was just seeing how far you'd gone towards improving

Have you mastered everything you've ever learned in your life? Maybe you have.

not even close, but i aint gonna whine about it. i'll also happily take direction, despite being a musician of some description for about 34 years. perhaps my not having much at all in the way of training means i don't have the same expectations of myself.

At least I can acknowledge my shortcomings

i'll say

look, it's simple. play to your strengths, improve what you can. seek help (quantisation, and other daw tools, is a good place start), training, and advice for what you cannot do

Okay, so how do I check for overlapping frequencies and then, after I find them, what do I do with them? I'm referring to what somebody said I need to do with the two bass sounds playing together. I'm assuming that since they're both bass sounds they're going to have overlapping frequencies. So what do I do? For that matter, why is that bad? I'm not hearing anything horribly wrong except maybe I can tell there are two bass sounds playing together. Should I not be able to do that?

What exactly is it I'm supposed to be achieving here?

overall, the idea is to give each sound it's own space to breathe, both along the stereo spectrum, and frequency spectrum. too much competition, especially in the bass frequencies is going to cause too much muddiness, with nothing being very distinct

first, go back to your decision to use the two sounds together in the first place. there is an art to layering sounds, where you are normally taking certain elements of one sound that are lacking from another, to make a composite sound that does what you need. with bass, people often use layering to add certain elements to the attack and sustain of a bass sound that might not be so easy to get from one patch. e.g stacking a short, clicky bass attack on top of long-decaying sub.

the clicky bass, on top, will likely have bass frequencies that extend lower than you need, given the body is being provided by the sub, and these frequencies will be repeated by both sounds, leading to unnecessary bass bloat, muddiness etc. so you might look to cut the lower frequencies of the higher part so they don't clash. it is the higher frequency content you are looking for from this part, so nothing is lost

these frequencies are notoriously difficult to hear well, as there is a lot of negative influence from bad monitoring, room reflections etc, that cause problems. as such, you would look to spectrum analysers (many eq's have them) to give you an idea what is happening accross the frequency spectrum. so, even with impaired hearing, you can learn to make good mix decisions

here's a good example. it shows the process with some synth lines, but can easily be applied to bass-layers



a lot of these issues can be avoided by choosing and arranging sounds more carefully, like this

[MTLE]

Okay, so how do I check for overlapping frequencies and then, after I find them, what do I do with them? I'm referring to what somebody said I need to do with the two bass sounds playing together. I'm assuming that since they're both bass sounds they're going to have overlapping frequencies. So what do I do? For that matter, why is that bad? I'm not hearing anything horribly wrong except maybe I can tell there are two bass sounds playing together. Should I not be able to do that?

What exactly is it I'm supposed to be achieving here?

Everything written above about mixing with ears and with tools is right. At this stage I believe its important to keep it simple for you. The starting bass is claer an dsound pretty good. Naturally both are in lower frequency range and I guess they overlap. Thats an acoustic impression to me. In my mix I would verify this visually. You not have to separate them completly, just reduce the overlapping a bit. E.g cut lower end at 100Hz of the 2nd bass a bit using high pass filter. Other option is to make 2nd absolutely deep put low pass filter on it in same range. Always check result with solo your track and listen in the mix. Hear diferences better with toggle filter on/off.

Attention this description is really

throwing darts in the dark.

[wagtunes]

Wag -- re: mixing, while having good ears and accurate monitors are important, using your meters is also really important and can help make your sound more polished. Before everyone flips out, I'm not saying you can make a good mix if you're deaf and only watch the meters, but along with listening, you have to watch the relative levels of your tracks, solo your tracks and use dynamic compression and EQ appropriately, and keep an eye on a frequency analyzer looking at your full mix, you will clearly see if something is jumping out, or if an important part is not registering where it should. Trust me, at 59 yrs old my hearing is not what it used to be but I try to be careful and compensate where I can and I think my mixes are ok.

Okay, now you're talking about using equipment that I am just not that good with yet and I'm sure it shows because yes, I do have EQ on everything and checked my levels the best I could. I don't know how to actually look at everything that's playing at one time and pick out the track that's out of place. I wouldn't even know what to look for.

So yes, THIS is one area where I desperately need training, music production, mixing, whatever you want to call it. I did take a course online. I thought it would be better than it was but it wasn't. Essentially they said, "This is an EQ. This is what it does." But they didn't really get into cleaning up mixes or anything like that. It was very basic stuff that was very little help to me.

So telling me to look at meters and whatever doesn't help me because I don't know what to look at. I do everything by ear which, or me, is just begging for disaster.

I need to go to a professional mixing school (if such an animal exists) and learn the whole thing. Unfortunately, that also costs a lot of money that I don't have. I'd love to get an internship at a local studio if I could but there are none in my area.

In short, I need training. I can't do this on my own.

OK. The challenge here is a handful of mixing tips that will help you in one (hopefully) brief post:

1) Take all the EQ off of everything.
2) Solo your tracks one at a time and look at the meters. Put your fader up to 0. If you're into the red then back off the level in the synth as you're probably overdriving something on the way in. Even with DAW headroom, it's still a good idea to not be slamming any levels. If the meter is really low than increase the gain from the synth.
3) Decide if you need EQ -- this is subjective and simply has to do if you like the sound or think it needs to be brighter, duller, edgier, etc... Often it's better to take away than to add.
4) Decide if the track needs dynamic compression. Also very subjective, but if the sound is going from really soft to really loud or the meter is jumping around like crazy chances are a little compression can help. Use presets as a starting point and don't over compress. There are a million compression tutorials on YouTube, find one for the compressor that you use in your DAW. If you want to use compression to make the drums punchier use the presets -- (this advice is based on you saying you don't understand how to set up compression).
5) Decide if the the compression has affected the sound so you need to EQ it again. Try not to do this as you can get into an over-processing situation, but sometimes a little tweak post-compressor can help in the mix. You can also hold off and do this during mixing.

After you've solo'd everything and like how each track sounds individually and that the levels are all where they should be, then build your mix.

Start with drums and bass. Listen to the kick and bass together -- you may have to tweak the eq to make space. This is easy -- you can notch one and boost the other. If you want the kick to be bottom heavy then roll off below 80hz on the bass and add a little at 60hz on the kick. For other instruments you can literally make space simply by notching one frequency in a narrow range and boosting the same range on another instrument. You only need a few db -- don't go crazy. Less is more. Some people use sidechaining so the kick pushes the bass back when it plays and that's ok, but not a necessary step. If you're not comfortable with doing that, then don't do it!

Use the stereo field. Mid-range bkgd instruments can be panned slightly to make space. Hi Hat and other percussion sounds can be panned also to create your stereo field.

Try to use sounds that have their own acoustic space. Everything should have an individual timbre that doesn't interfere with other sounds.

When bringing up the melody, do it slowly. Once you think it's loud enough start backing it off until you barely hear it, then bring it up just a little at a time. It just has to read, it should not be 6db louder than everything else. And if you're not sure where it's reading on your spectral monitor, just solo it and you'll see exactly where it is.

This also applies to any important part. Bring it up to a good level, then back it off a little until it starts to go away. Then bring it back. Nothing should stick out unless you are deliberately making a statement with a sound.

Use groups. And you can use bus compression on groups (for instance all the pads and strings can be grouped and have some light compression, it will help them be cohesive). For instance, if I have a hi hat and then some other fast percussion like congas, shakers, etc.. I will group them all together and use some light compression and watch the the group fader meter to help make sure the stereo field is consistent.

Don't use tons of different reverbs. EQ the low and hi end of the reverb so it doesn't clog up the acoustic space in the track (just trim in the bottom and top EQ on the reverb return). Try to put as many things as possible in the same reverb space -- it will tie your mix together.

When you have the mix ready listen down without the lead instruments -- it should still sound good!

Your final mix bus chain should be as simple as possible. Don't use a multi-band compressor unless you either a) find a preset that you think sounds great, or b) you know what you're doing. Overall mix EQ should be super subtle. The last step is your limiter which can raise the overall level and provide a little peak reduction. Little is the operative word -- you should not see more than 2 or 3 db at most. There's all kinds of other stuff -- stereo field expanders, channel strips, etc.... but only use what you feel comfortable with. Again, less is more and start with the presets built into your DAW -- someone has thought them out and they are a great starting point.

That's it. 30 years of mixing experience in a few hundred words. Don't sweat it, I'm sure you know more than you think you do!

Holy crap! LOL.

Okay, if I'm going to do all this, I'm going to make a copy of the project because making all those changes, I'm not going to have any idea how to get back to what I originally had and if I mess things up totally I will really be up the creek.

A lot of this is very new to me. I can just about understand some of what you're saying. Applying it is probably going to take me the remaining 8 days I have to put this together. But that's okay. If the composition is essentially completed (do we agree on that much?) then all that's left is the mix and hopefully 8 days will be enough time.

I already cleaned up some of the muddiness of the two basses by putting some EQ on the master stereo out cutting everything below 60. It didn't seem to affect anything but the bass sounds. But I'll solo everything and maybe tweak the EQs that I have on the bass. I did use presets because I don't like mucking around with these things. Obviously, the presets I choose left too much bottom for the two basses not to sound muddy together. At least they did to my ears but now sound much better. But then again, we're talking about MY ears so who knows? I might have actually made things worse.

Anyway, I kind of understand what I have to do now. I'm not 100% sure I can actually do this on my own but I'm going to give this a shot.

Is there any way I can get this track entered under KVR OSC because all the people here who have helped put this together deserve a lot of the credit. This would have sounded like total crap without you guys.

Thanks.

[bibz1st]

Collaborations are allowed and all that info is of great help to me too, I tend to fumble through without knowing exactly what Im doing so you're not on your own there.

[wagtunes]

Collaborations are allowed and all that info is of great help to me too, I tend to fumble through without knowing exactly what Im doing so you're not on your own there.

Well, tomorrow my wife is working a rummage sale and I have all day to work on the mix. I'll just take it one track at a time.

Oddly, I'm excited about this. Not sure why. But I am.

[ThePresent]

Don't be afraid to spend lots of time eq'ing listening and watching spectral meters, and compressing. It will drive you nuts sometimes (it sureley did with my first OSC) but if you A-B your song to some good reference tracks and your current raw mix you will hear improvement once your ears have taken some rest. As Jasinski kindly told me, a lot goes into going over and over it again You will progress if you keep asking and working, no doubt about it, as long as you do not allow the voting thing to be your ultimate judge. I personally think this composition is a lot better than your Synthmaster OSC entry.

[ontrackp]

wag said:

Holy crap! LOL.

Okay, if I'm going to do all this, I'm going to make a copy of the project because making all those changes, I'm not going to have any idea how to get back to what I originally had and if I mess things up totally I will really be up the creek.

That's a good idea.

I had the good fortune of working for a few years with an engineer who had been Phil Ramone's assistant on many great records (Billy Joel, Barbara Streisand, The Carpenters, etc...). I learned from him the value of doing the meticulous process that I outlined above. It seems like a lot but if you go step by step it's actually super logical, simple in practice, and doesn't have to take a long time. You don't have to struggle with all the decisions.

We have a saying -- "Digital lowered the bar". Part of that is because it's made it so that everything is non-destructive, and all the kids coming up now don't understand the value of simply thinking about something, then executing it and living with the results. Most of the time spent (or wasted) in production is the doing and re-doing and re-doing and re-doing that is the result of this non-destructive mind set. We used to record on 2 inch tape and mix down in one pass to 1/4". Maybe a couple of pieces that had to be edited together. We had to make a decision on every take. And once we recorded over it, the old one was gone. Despite this very time efficient and decision driven process, great records were made.

Make decisions, live with them, have fun and move on!

[animehaus]

OK. The challenge here is a handful of mixing tips that will help you in one (hopefully) brief post:

1) Take all the EQ off of everything.
2) Solo your tracks one at a time and look at the meters. Put your fader up to 0. If you're into the red then back off the level in the synth as you're probably overdriving something on the way in. Even with DAW headroom, it's still a good idea to not be slamming any levels. If the meter is really low than increase the gain from the synth.
3) Decide if you need EQ -- this is subjective and simply has to do if you like the sound or think it needs to be brighter, duller, edgier, etc... Often it's better to take away than to add.
4) Decide if the track needs dynamic compression. Also very subjective, but if the sound is going from really soft to really loud or the meter is jumping around like crazy chances are a little compression can help. Use presets as a starting point and don't over compress. There are a million compression tutorials on YouTube, find one for the compressor that you use in your DAW. If you want to use compression to make the drums punchier use the presets -- (this advice is based on you saying you don't understand how to set up compression).
5) Decide if the the compression has affected the sound so you need to EQ it again. Try not to do this as you can get into an over-processing situation, but sometimes a little tweak post-compressor can help in the mix. You can also hold off and do this during mixing.

After you've solo'd everything and like how each track sounds individually and that the levels are all where they should be, then build your mix.

Start with drums and bass. Listen to the kick and bass together -- you may have to tweak the eq to make space. This is easy -- you can notch one and boost the other. If you want the kick to be bottom heavy then roll off below 80hz on the bass and add a little at 60hz on the kick. For other instruments you can literally make space simply by notching one frequency in a narrow range and boosting the same range on another instrument. You only need a few db -- don't go crazy. Less is more. Some people use sidechaining so the kick pushes the bass back when it plays and that's ok, but not a necessary step. If you're not comfortable with doing that, then don't do it!

Use the stereo field. Mid-range bkgd instruments can be panned slightly to make space. Hi Hat and other percussion sounds can be panned also to create your stereo field.

Try to use sounds that have their own acoustic space. Everything should have an individual timbre that doesn't interfere with other sounds.

When bringing up the melody, do it slowly. Once you think it's loud enough start backing it off until you barely hear it, then bring it up just a little at a time. It just has to read, it should not be 6db louder than everything else. And if you're not sure where it's reading on your spectral monitor, just solo it and you'll see exactly where it is.

This also applies to any important part. Bring it up to a good level, then back it off a little until it starts to go away. Then bring it back. Nothing should stick out unless you are deliberately making a statement with a sound.

Use groups. And you can use bus compression on groups (for instance all the pads and strings can be grouped and have some light compression, it will help them be cohesive). For instance, if I have a hi hat and then some other fast percussion like congas, shakers, etc.. I will group them all together and use some light compression and watch the the group fader meter to help make sure the stereo field is consistent.

Don't use tons of different reverbs. EQ the low and hi end of the reverb so it doesn't clog up the acoustic space in the track (just trim in the bottom and top EQ on the reverb return). Try to put as many things as possible in the same reverb space -- it will tie your mix together.

When you have the mix ready listen down without the lead instruments -- it should still sound good!

Your final mix bus chain should be as simple as possible. Don't use a multi-band compressor unless you either a) find a preset that you think sounds great, or b) you know what you're doing. Overall mix EQ should be super subtle. The last step is your limiter which can raise the overall level and provide a little peak reduction. Little is the operative word -- you should not see more than 2 or 3 db at most. There's all kinds of other stuff -- stereo field expanders, channel strips, etc.... but only use what you feel comfortable with. Again, less is more and start with the presets built into your DAW -- someone has thought them out and they are a great starting point.

That's it. 30 years of mixing experience in a few hundred words. Don't sweat it, I'm sure you know more than you think you do!

Wonderful post, Steve: straight to the point and really easy to understand.