KVR Audio

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:58 pm

Have there been any changes or improvements in 9.5 to the way Ableton Live handles PDC (plugin delay compensation)?

Has anyone done any PDC testing yet with Ableton 9.5?

* edit - just tested, and Live still does not compensate for 3rd party plugin latency.

Video:
http://cl.ly/2L1q3x162U1a

rod_zero · Post by **rod_zero** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:17 pm

No, changes were done in 9.2. What is your current problem?

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:19 pm

rod_zero wrote:No, changes were done in 9.2. What is your current problem?

Live still does not compensate for 3rd party plugin latency.

2020 · Post by **2020** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:56 pm

Huh? It absolutely does, and it's been doing it for a few versions now. Make sure the Delay Compensation option in the Options menu is selected.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:57 pm

It does... only thing it doesn't do is distribute the midi timing accordingly to all plugins. So plugins that rely on timing information such as sequenced effects for instance, will be out of sync if placed after a plugin with latency.

Ah, just watched your video, yes, LFO Tool is an example of what I just described. Well, it was worse prior to 9.2, at least automation is in sync now.... I tend to look at it from the bright side, not much that I can do anyway

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:26 pm

BDeep wrote:It does... only thing it doesn't do is distribute the midi timing accordingly to all plugins. So plugins that rely on timing information such as sequenced effects for instance, will be out of sync if placed after a plugin with latency.

Ah, just watched your video, yes, LFO Tool is an example of what I just described. Well, it was worse prior to 9.2, at least automation is in sync now.... I tend to look at it from the bright side, not much that I can do anyway

PDC is plugin delay compensation, so no it doesn't. Not sure what your confusion is between PDC and MIDI timing.

Ableton Live 9.5 does not report latency from 3rd party plugins to other plugins in the chain, so there can be no plugin delay compensation with 3rd party plugins in Ableton Live 9.5, period.

2020 · Post by **2020** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:50 pm

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. No DAW reports the latency of one plugin to another, and even if a DAW did, the other plugin wouldn't know what to do with such information. It's up to the DAW to compensate for latency.

BDeep is not confused at all. A proper implementation of PDC involves compensating for all signals flowing through a plugin chain. That includes audio, midi, automation, and modulation.

Live compensates for audio and, more recently, automation/modulation. It doesn't compensate for midi, which I'm guessing is what LFO Tool uses somehow (I'm not familiar with how it works).

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:04 pm

billcarroll wrote:
BDeep wrote:It does... only thing it doesn't do is distribute the midi timing accordingly to all plugins. So plugins that rely on timing information such as sequenced effects for instance, will be out of sync if placed after a plugin with latency.

Ah, just watched your video, yes, LFO Tool is an example of what I just described. Well, it was worse prior to 9.2, at least automation is in sync now.... I tend to look at it from the bright side, not much that I can do anyway
PDC is plugin delay compensation, so no it doesn't. Not sure what your confusion is between PDC and MIDI timing.

Ableton Live 9.5 does not report latency from 3rd party plugins to other plugins in the chain, so there can be no plugin delay compensation with 3rd party plugins in Ableton Live 9.5, period.

Pretty much what 2020 said. There's nuance and you're not interested in it, that's fine, I'll leave it at that.

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:15 pm

BDeep wrote:
billcarroll wrote:
BDeep wrote:It does... only thing it doesn't do is distribute the midi timing accordingly to all plugins. So plugins that rely on timing information such as sequenced effects for instance, will be out of sync if placed after a plugin with latency.

Ah, just watched your video, yes, LFO Tool is an example of what I just described. Well, it was worse prior to 9.2, at least automation is in sync now.... I tend to look at it from the bright side, not much that I can do anyway
PDC is plugin delay compensation, so no it doesn't. Not sure what your confusion is between PDC and MIDI timing.

Ableton Live 9.5 does not report latency from 3rd party plugins to other plugins in the chain, so there can be no plugin delay compensation with 3rd party plugins in Ableton Live 9.5, period.
Pretty much what 2020 said. There's nuance and you're not interested in it, that's fine, I'll leave it at that.

There is absolutely no nuance regarding PDC and 3rd party plugins that introduce latency. If you think there is, please demonstrate. I'm happy to be persuaded by evidence.

2020 · Post by **2020** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:24 pm

I'm sorry, but you're way off. Here are some instructions for testing compensation of audio.

1. Set up 2 audio tracks with the same loop on the same scene.
2. Put your favorite latency introducing effect on one of the channels with its mix knob set all the way to dry. This way it introduces latency but doesn't alter the audio.
3. Invert the phase of one of the channels using Utility.
4. Enable Latency Compensation. Do the two channels cancel each other out perfectly?
5. Disable Latency Compensation. Do the two channels cancel each other out perfectly?

Testing automation can be done the same way but by automating the volume of both tracks with same automation pattern.

BDeep · Post by **BDeep** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:28 pm

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2#p6286722

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:29 pm

2020 wrote:I'm sorry, but you're way off. Here are some instructions for testing compensation of audio.

1. Set up 2 audio tracks with the same loop on the same scene.
2. Put your favorite latency introducing effect on one of the channels with its mix knob set all the way to dry. This way it introduces latency but doesn't alter the audio.
3. Invert the phase of one of the channels using Utility.
4. Enable Latency Compensation. Do the two channels cancel each other out perfectly?
5. Disable Latency Compensation. Do the two channels cancel each other out perfectly?

Testing automation can be done the same way but by automating the volume of both tracks with same automation pattern.

You clearly misunderstand PDC.

See studio One for proper plugin delay compensation in a device chain.

http://cl.ly/031E0i0f150E

The first LFOTool shows signal before entering Pro-Q2 using Linear phase, which introduces latency, the second LFOTool after Pro-Q2 knows about the latency and is able to compensate. This is working plugin delay compensation.

2020 · Post by **2020** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:35 pm

Yeah. I'm out too.

billcarroll · Post by **billcarroll** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:46 pm

It seems like there is some confusion between PDC on a single track in a device chain, and track latency. Ableton Live compensates total track latency, so each track ends up in overall time with all of the other tracks when they hit the master out.

However, timing within track device chains is still not accurate.

Ableton Live does not have PDC for 3rd party plugins. If you place a 3rd party plugin in a device chain on a track, the latency introduced by that plugin will not be compensated for by other plugins that come after it in the device chain. This is often noticeable with effects that require timing, such as delays or plugins like LFOTool. This issue with Ableton Live PDC is why the offset control exists in LFOTool.

For example, you have a bassline playing, and you put a 3rd party plugin on the bassline that introduces latency. After that 3rd party plugin you place an LFOTool to duck the bass for the kick. The bass notes will be played in time at the master channel, however the spot where the bass is ducked will not match where the kick hits. The bass ducking will be off by the number of samples introduced by the 3rd party plugin.

kmonkey · Post by **kmonkey** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:00 pm

billcarroll wrote: Ableton Live 9.5 does not report latency from 3rd party plugins to other plugins in the chain

You are doing something wrong then! Clearly and absolutely Ableton does report latency from 3rd party plugins in chain, racked grouped or whatever. I have UAD, Nebula, Slate VTM and whatever the hell of plugins which does introduce latency. I can clearly see their reported latency if i hoover over plugins (latency is reported in info window).

And all of my tracks are in perfect sync.

??

billcarroll wrote:
Ableton Live does not have PDC for 3rd party plugins. If you place a 3rd party plugin in a device chain on a track, the latency introduced by that plugin will not be compensated for by other plugins that come after it in the device chain.

You should really stop spreading false assumption. You are doing something wrong. I don't know what but here third party plugins are perfectly reported and compensated up to a sample resolution.

edit - i just tried it for the sake of being sure. Yep. I loaded slate VTM, FGX and 2x Nebula reverb plugin. I loaded few ableton plugins before and after 3rd party plugins. In the same track. I introduced almost 300ms of latency (it is nicely reported by ableton in info box) and that track is PERFECTLY compensated with the rest of tracks. Not sure what the hell are you talking about...

edit2:

https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article ... ase-notes/

read 9.2 release notes:

The latency introduced by a device is now displayed in the status bar, when hovering over the title bar with the mouse.

Ableton 9.5 and the state of PDC