KVR Audio

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:46 pm

I think the recent version of the Sonar forum is a little less devisive than it was before.

Vintagevibe may still see that bit of the old diehard us/them scenarios because he was there before. I am thinking about the time X1 got released?

If so then I can full well see why.

X1 was that bad...

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:30 pm

flugel45 wrote:
I see posts there everyday where people get all kinds of help.

+1

The bad apples can sour one's impression, as they have mine sometimes, but I actually think they are in the minority. There's a large strata of good dudes who just give helpful answers. That includes Craig when he's in Dr Jekyll mode, which to be fair is often.

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:44 pm

lingyai wrote:
flugel45 wrote:
I see posts there everyday where people get all kinds of help.

+1

The bad apples can sour one's impression, as they have mine sometimes, but I actually think they are in the minority. There's a large strata of good dudes who just give helpful answers. That includes Craig when he's in Dr Jekyll mode, which to be fair is often.

This is a funny sentence, couldn't resist!

I don't remember I have any problem in their Forums. But I also didn't go there and tell them "I don't like Sonar"! I mean what's the point of this negative title in the company's forum?! So, in this case I blame the OP of that post. He should have posted it in a neutral land (like here for example

).

chrisby · Post by **chrisby** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:54 pm

I haven't been to the CW forums in a fair while so this might be outdated. My last time there though was pretty much typical of a lot of my previous experiences... so not isolated, just the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. I went looking for a specific issue but in doing so saw a post I could contribute to in that a guy was having a problem I'd recently had and had found a workaround for. I posted the workaround and what I got in return was a bunch of absolute know nothings piling on basically lecturing me and saying I was a moron (and implying a liar as well).

Like a lot of people here at KVR I make my living in the tech sector... 30 years of nothing but commercial sw development. Working either as a developer or in management on everything from products that have (literally) generated billions of dollars in revenue to small startups. I'm not at all saying this to brag ('cause honestly I don't think it's anything to brag about) but I can say while my musicianship is pretty dubious I do know software (as do many here). It's what I do every day (for better or worse).

Anyway, when I gave my workaround to the guy a bunch of people started lecturing me on how it was my problem and nothing to do with the product. I pushed back gently basically saying "no, I have experience with this, it is almost certainly a product issue" followed by my rationale for saying so. I got more lectures and questioning of my computer literacy at which point I finally copped to being in the industry, very familiar with how to quantify a sw problem, and that while it was slightly possible it was not a product problem all indications were that it was. From that came more lectures and a bunch of "sure you work in the software industry". Jeeze... the responses were borderline infantile and basically full of misinformation (from a tech standpoint). I gave up a let it go but not before a bunch or regulars got in their two cents and imparted their deep knowledge of how all things software actually work. Gee thanks.

The funny thing was that the workaround I gave the guy did work but he never came back to the thread no doubt afraid if he said anything they'd pile on him as well...

Oh, and the guys that were the most vocal seemed to be regulars (at least at the time), ironically the one guy that came (slightly) to my defense was called "bitflipper" or something if I remember.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:58 pm

Would you say something like that doesn't happen here, or in other product or company forums?

I could imagine though that there are surely some more people who are fed up with the critics about Sonar, or everything Cakewalk, be that deserved or not. But i would imagine it gets a bit annoying when the software is working well for you, and you can't understand the criticism. Maybe it's just that there are a few more people who feel like that on the Cakewalk forum. Anyway, forums suck sometimes, and you get annoyed or angry over nothing, simply because it's a pool of people, and you usually wouldn't deal with a pool of people every time in real life, and there's the anonymity or "not talking face to face" factor too. I guess all i want to say is that one shouldn't always take things 100 % serious. I got bullied on another forum too, or at least it felt like that, and it quite pissed me off, but then, i feel like i have taken part in something like that too a couple of times, so fair enough, and it's bet to forget about it after some time.

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:08 am

I did see summat like that a few times here...but it usually turns out to be a troll ...like little Edward here.

I remember one thread at Sonar that had everyone in it...the fanboys...the bashers...those trying to keep to the topic...and then....Supercomposer and John10ten....

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:09 am

Been using Cake since 1999, so 16 years. I also use Cubase. I like them both. Cubase probably is more tuned into the pro user. But as others said, all DAWs likely have mostly non-pro or semi-pro user base.

I stopped using SONAR for a couple years when they wouldn't fix the issues that made it incompatible with U-He text input. I'm super glad they fixed that problem in the new subscription release, because I usually create my own patches while working on new pieces in my DAW.

What I'm not happy about is how it is now effectively more expansive. Oh well...it's also better, so I guess we're getting what we're paying for. I think so.

And I have to say it's always a positive experience going back to the Skylight interface. It really is elegant and well executed. Not perfect, but better than Cubase's free-floating windows (though they are starting to follow Cake's lead and allow some stuff to be docked here and there).

So even though I became very fond of Cubase's cool features, I am happy to be eating cake again. It feels more "right" for me to be working in this friendly, familiar environment.

I have to say though, I agree about the forum

lingyai · Post by **lingyai** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:10 am

chrisby wrote:I haven't been to the CW forums in a fair while so this might be outdated. My last time there though was pretty much typical of a lot of my previous experiences... so not isolated, just the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. I went looking for a specific issue but in doing so saw a post I could contribute to in that a guy was having a problem I'd recently had and had found a workaround for. I posted the workaround and what I got in return was a bunch of absolute know nothings piling on basically lecturing me and saying I was a moron (and implying a liar as well).

Like a lot of people here at KVR I make my living in the tech sector... 30 years of nothing but commercial sw development. Working either as a developer or in management on everything from products that have (literally) generated billions of dollars in revenue to small startups. I'm not at all saying this to brag ('cause honestly I don't think it's anything to brag about) but I can say while my musicianship is pretty dubious I do know software (as do many here). It's what I do every day (for better or worse).

Anyway, when I gave my workaround to the guy a bunch of people started lecturing me on how it was my problem and nothing to do with the product. I pushed back gently basically saying "no, I have experience with this, it is almost certainly a product issue" followed by my rationale for saying so. I got more lectures and questioning of my computer literacy at which point I finally copped to being in the industry, very familiar with how to quantify a sw problem, and that while it was slightly possible it was not a product problem all indications were that it was. From that came more lectures and a bunch of "sure you work in the software industry". Jeeze... the responses were borderline infantile and basically full of misinformation (from a tech standpoint). I gave up a let it go but not before a bunch or regulars got in their two cents and imparted their deep knowledge of how all things software actually work. Gee thanks.

The funny thing was that the workaround I gave the guy did work but he never came back to the thread no doubt afraid if he said anything they'd pile on him as well...

Oh, and the guys that were the most vocal seemed to be regulars (at least at the time), ironically the one guy that came (slightly) to my defense was called "bitflipper" or something if I remember.

I'm sorry to hear that happened. I can only say that would seem pretty out of character for what I've seen on the forum since moving to Sonar a year ago. Granted, I don't read it top to bottom daily, but I have seen that it seems to be a place for sober, techno-specific (unlike the Sonar OP's vague rant) apolitical discussion of debugging and workarounds. These days, anyway. Anderton himself concedes there are bugs, and helps out.

I'd have given up on Sonar within three months or so if it hadn't been for the forum.

Interesting how forum experiences really can shape our attitudes towards DAWs. Makes sense I guess as they are meant to be there as a tech support resource -- if people are jerks, you'r reluctant to go there. The Hooded Order at the unofficial MOTU forum sure quenched my curiousity about DP pretty quickly.

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:14 am

I've not commented about the Cakewalk forum thus far because i have no strong opinion on it. I almost never used the forum. I think it was because the forum software sucked when I first started using it. There were serious bugs, it pretty much demanded IE, and i was also doing my web stuff from BeOS for the first few years (self-inflicted web incompatibility on my part after a certain point). I just couldn't participate.

Also, every issue I successfully inquired about (once I gave up trying to keep my music machine off the web) was responded to with either silence or "I don't have that problem. Must be your system." Wasn't much I could do.

I didn't get into much argument (or so I remember now; I might have lost my memory on it), so I can't say it was particularly hostile. Just... not helpful to me, personally.

I think forums are a lot alike. I also think they go through changes in membership that can shape the overall personality of them into different things at different times. I like KVR. Yet, people occasionally post scathing hate about it sometimes. I don't know how they see the opposite of what I see, but that's human, I guess.

One hypothesis based on the above: if a product has enough problems to drive away those who are focused on getting work done, it might then result in the population of users being very dedicated and hard core. Enclaves and minorities develop defensiveness (and rightly so). When Cakewalk went through product re-design and business shakeups, maybe the more moderate personalities and productivity-focused people decreased in number, leaving more room for the hyper-vigilant and defensive people who spend way more time on forums just to interact. It lets that group appear louder than the remaining moderate people, especially when defending their sacred cow.

[shrug]

vespesian · Post by **vespesian** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:15 pm

chk071 wrote:And i read here more than once that Steinberg censors their forum hard. That's why i think it's the same Thing everywhere. Didn't like what you read, or how the mods handled you or another person: You rate the forum bad. Liked what you read, and you or another person got handled well: You rate the forum good. I've seen a lot of companies' forums, and they really didn't differ much from each other.

Steinberg does often censor their boards hard, although, these days, it's more consistent as to why in most cases. Interestingly, SB mods will also censor fanboys. Their forums are incredibly dry (i.e., boring) but have actually become pretty straightforward, as 'experts' can dispense advice w/o a lot of extraneous politics.

(NB - The Wavelab forum, it should be noted, is exceptional - PG, the developer, responds to close to 50% of users posts, gives clear timelines, problem-solves, considers features etc. on a daily basis. I don't think he stops working.)

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:17 pm

I'd rather have a boring company forum with info instead of fanboys vs. haters bashfests. I mean, it's supposed to be a support forum, nothing more nothing less. I don't care about personal vanity fair.

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:24 pm

chk071 wrote:I'd rather have a boring company forum with info instead of fanboys vs. haters bashfests. I mean, it's supposed to be a support forum, nothing more nothing less. I don't care about personal vanity fair.

That is why I like forums like Cubase's and Studio One's. If you are looking for solid information those forums do it for me. As for Sonar, if a relative new-comer goes and asks a simple question...one never knows what to expect.
I had a few questions I posted there and it was almost a guessing game which one would get the fanboys/bashers/distracted/trolling one's...

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:29 pm

Yeah, i got some solid Information on the Steinberg forums too when i looked for it. Well, some problems were pretty special, so i didn't really find something, but i guess that's normal. No idea about the CW forums.

vintagevibe · Post by **vintagevibe** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:10 pm

chrisby wrote:I haven't been to the CW forums in a fair while so this might be outdated. My last time there though was pretty much typical of a lot of my previous experiences... so not isolated, just the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. I went looking for a specific issue but in doing so saw a post I could contribute to in that a guy was having a problem I'd recently had and had found a workaround for. I posted the workaround and what I got in return was a bunch of absolute know nothings piling on basically lecturing me and saying I was a moron (and implying a liar as well).

Like a lot of people here at KVR I make my living in the tech sector... 30 years of nothing but commercial sw development. Working either as a developer or in management on everything from products that have (literally) generated billions of dollars in revenue to small startups. I'm not at all saying this to brag ('cause honestly I don't think it's anything to brag about) but I can say while my musicianship is pretty dubious I do know software (as do many here). It's what I do every day (for better or worse).

Anyway, when I gave my workaround to the guy a bunch of people started lecturing me on how it was my problem and nothing to do with the product. I pushed back gently basically saying "no, I have experience with this, it is almost certainly a product issue" followed by my rationale for saying so. I got more lectures and questioning of my computer literacy at which point I finally copped to being in the industry, very familiar with how to quantify a sw problem, and that while it was slightly possible it was not a product problem all indications were that it was. From that came more lectures and a bunch of "sure you work in the software industry". Jeeze... the responses were borderline infantile and basically full of misinformation (from a tech standpoint). I gave up a let it go but not before a bunch or regulars got in their two cents and imparted their deep knowledge of how all things software actually work. Gee thanks.

The funny thing was that the workaround I gave the guy did work but he never came back to the thread no doubt afraid if he said anything they'd pile on him as well...

Oh, and the guys that were the most vocal seemed to be regulars (at least at the time), ironically the one guy that came (slightly) to my defense was called "bitflipper" or something if I remember.

Pretty much my experience. I've worked in IT for several major computer companies and have been configuring PC's for audio since the early 90's. The same guy that you are talking about gets on and starts basically reciting a call center script of things to do that have absolutely nothing to do with my issue. He then get's all snooty an arrogant when he you don't follow his instructions. More than just a waste of time it's actually pretty insulting. Then of course the rest of the "gang" chimes in that it's not a Sonar problem yada yada yada ad nauseum. This is the standard thread on the Sonar forum and is not an anomaly. So with this situation going on what does Cakewalk do ... they make him a moderator.

He eventually got fired from it so he changed his name and continues with "business as usual". Anyway it's not just him it's all the main people who use the forum as their social life that have turned it into what it is. The sad thing is that Craig encourages it and joins in.

vintagevibe · Post by **vintagevibe** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:12 pm

chk071 wrote:I'd rather have a boring company forum with info instead of fanboys vs. haters bashfests. I mean, it's supposed to be a support forum, nothing more nothing less. I don't care about personal vanity fair.

That's what I look for. I'm there to get or give information not join a social club or cult.

This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar