This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar

[trimph1]

I think it is a good example of what happens when a product such as Sonar, with all its potential, ends up with a bunch of defensiveness instead of thinking about the issues.

[vintagevibe]

One hypothesis based on the above: if a product has enough problems to drive away those who are focused on getting work done, it might then result in the population of users being very dedicated and hard core. Enclaves and minorities develop defensiveness (and rightly so). When Cakewalk went through product re-design and business shakeups, maybe the more moderate personalities and productivity-focused people decreased in number, leaving more room for the hyper-vigilant and defensive people who spend way more time on forums just to interact. It lets that group appear louder than the remaining moderate people, especially when defending their sacred cow.

[shrug]

Very well said and probably the exact case here. I would have thought that Cakewalk would want a different tone if they want more customers but they seem to be fine with what they have now. Or maybe they just don't get it.

[vintagevibe]

I think the recent version of the Sonar forum is a little less devisive than it was before.

Vintagevibe may still see that bit of the old diehard us/them scenarios because he was there before. I am thinking about the time X1 got released?

If so then I can full well see why.

X1 was that bad...

You might have a point.

[trimph1]

One hypothesis based on the above: if a product has enough problems to drive away those who are focused on getting work done, it might then result in the population of users being very dedicated and hard core. Enclaves and minorities develop defensiveness (and rightly so). When Cakewalk went through product re-design and business shakeups, maybe the more moderate personalities and productivity-focused people decreased in number, leaving more room for the hyper-vigilant and defensive people who spend way more time on forums just to interact. It lets that group appear louder than the remaining moderate people, especially when defending their sacred cow.

[shrug]

Very well said and probably the exact case here. I would have thought that Cakewalk would want a different tone if they want more customers but they seem to be fine with what they have now. Or maybe they just don't get it.

I think that not getting it would be the case.

[jinotsuh]

to my defense was called "bitflipper" or something if I remember.

The same guy that you are talking about gets on and starts basically reciting a call center script of things to do that have absolutely nothing to do with my issue. He then get's all snooty an arrogant when he you don't follow his instructions. More than just a waste of time it's actually pretty insulting. Then of course the rest of the "gang" chimes in that it's not a Sonar problem yada yada yada ad nauseum. This is the standard thread on the Sonar forum and is not an anomaly. So with this situation going on what does Cakewalk do ... they make him a moderator. He eventually got fired from it so he changed his name and continues with "business as usual". Anyway it's not just him it's all the main people who use the forum as their social life that have turned it into what it is. The sad thing is that Craig encourages it and joins in.

hmmm, I may be misunderstanding something here, but when the previous poster mentioned bitflipper and then you said "The same guy that you are talking about . . . " I don't think that you are talking about the same person, vintagevibe I believe you are talking about Doktor Avalanche (CakeAlex) would I be right, not bitflipper ? I have always found bitflipper to be just about the pick of the bunch when it comes to hosts, as for Doktor Avalanche, he is a pita.

I agree with everything else you say, especially it is never Sonars fault etc etc

[jinotsuh]

to my defense was called "bitflipper" or something if I remember.

The same guy that you are talking about gets on and starts basically reciting a call center script of things to do that have absolutely nothing to do with my issue. He then get's all snooty an arrogant when he you don't follow his instructions. More than just a waste of time it's actually pretty insulting. Then of course the rest of the "gang" chimes in that it's not a Sonar problem yada yada yada ad nauseum. This is the standard thread on the Sonar forum and is not an anomaly. So with this situation going on what does Cakewalk do ... they make him a moderator. He eventually got fired from it so he changed his name and continues with "business as usual". Anyway it's not just him it's all the main people who use the forum as their social life that have turned it into what it is. The sad thing is that Craig encourages it and joins in.

hmmm, I may be misunderstanding something here, but when the previous poster mentioned bitflipper and then you said "The same guy that you are talking about . . . " I don't think that you are talking about the same person, vintagevibe I believe you are talking about Doktor Avalanche (CakeAlex - Splat) would I be right, not bitflipper ? I have always found bitflipper to be just about the pick of the bunch when it comes to hosts, as for Doktor Avalanche, he is a pita.

I agree with everything else you say, especially it is never Sonars fault etc etc

[flugel45]

Definitely not bitflipper. Bitflipper is about as low key as they come, and he has never changed his name -- he is still a moderator.

Let's throw some other wrong names around and badmouth a few more people. That's what happens when a rabid rant becomes more and more generalized. Enough already.

[chk071]

I think it is a good example of what happens when a product such as Sonar, with all its potential, ends up with a bunch of defensiveness instead of thinking about the issues.

Indeed. Can't really judge about the justification of the criticism, but if the rest of their software is anything like their synth plugins, then it's at least not a surprise if the echo is a bit mixed to say the least. Usually there's at least a spark of truth in bashing anyway, so i figure it's the case here also.

[kmmcdonald]

This thread contains more hyperbole and rudeness (both on- and off-topic) than any that I recall seeing in the Sonar forum.

[jsp1979]

Definitely not bitflipper. Bitflipper is about as low key as they come, and he has never changed his name -- he is still a moderator.

Agree. The person cannot possibly be talking about bitflipper. He's one of the kindest, most laidback, helpful posters that I've ever met on any audio forum.

He also writes helpful articles for soundbytes magazine.

[trimph1]

This thread contains more hyperbole and rudeness (both on- and off-topic) than any that I recall seeing in the Sonar forum.

Try looking at the start of the X1 story.

I do think that you are not that far off but just from my experience with the site I found a fair amount of cranky behavior there.

[Constructed Identity]

This thread is relevant to me. I've been a Sonar user since 6, switched from Logic back then and now I'm thinking of switching to something else. Never bothered with the "X" releases - so glad, but I don't think I get upgrade discount now so why stick around.

[CTStump]

This thread contains more hyperbole and rudeness (both on- and off-topic) than any that I recall seeing in the Sonar forum.

That is to be expected here I mean this IS KVR.

I would say the Sonar forum has gotten a little better since the initial release of the X series( in my most humble opinion). As far as the software is concerned, they kinda took the wrong direction with the all in one screen approach. For someone who was used to the old way it meant relearning a system that one was already up to speed on.

It's really not as bad as I see it because the sales to new users helped Cakewalk stay course at least enough to keep the ship afloat and the subscription is making them fix things when in the past they would drop support after the third update.

I wish them well(Cakewalk that is) with their new crop of customers and loyal upgraders... but I'm afraid I'm not only one who jumped ship because of what I consider the "X" debacle(once again, my opinion).

[Jim Roseberry]

I go all the way back to when the Cakewalk forums were on CompuServe.
Then, they moved to NewsGroup format...
And finally, the move to the Web

IMO, The forums contained more substantive participants and information in the past.
Robert Deaner, Bruce Richardson, Pete Leoni, Ted Perlman, etc...
We had many great discussions.
We were right on the bleeding edge... watching DAW capabilities develop (year-by-year) into the power-house tools of today.

The move to the Web exposed Cakewalk to a much larger potential market... but the "signal-to-noise" ratio degraded a bit.
I guess that's to be expected with a much broader potential user-base.

In any event, I don't think the forums/product are as bad as portrayed in this thread.
Platinum certainly isn't flawless, but it's working well for most users.
The new subscription model has brought about a more agile/sprite (responsive) company.
Updates have been regular and substantial. Far better IMO than the previous model... where you had ~3 patch updates.

I'll admit I was concerned when Gibson bought Cakewalk.
But thus far, I think it's worked out well.
Craig Anderton is a great liaison to help bridge the corporate and creative worlds.

[vintagevibe]

I go all the way back to when the Cakewalk forums were on CompuServe.
Then, they moved to NewsGroup format...
And finally, the move to the Web

IMO, The forums contained more substantive participants and information in the past.
Robert Deaner, Bruce Richardson, Pete Leoni, Ted Perlman, etc...
We had many great discussions.
We were right on the bleeding edge... watching DAW capabilities develop (year-by-year) into the power-house tools of today.

I was there during those times. It was truly a professional experience. The opposite is true.

Craig Anderton is a great liaison to help bridge the corporate and creative worlds.

I don't totally agree. He's a good liaison because of his reputation but in practice he gets personal and strays from professionalism in the forums. He seems to enjoy the cultist attitude and proliferates the "with us or against us" attitude.