Imitone -- wow! Most embarassing post I ever started

[ThomasHelzle]

The app exists on the principle that with nearly any DAW, it's easier to use a MIDI keyboard than a MIDI-producing VST -- especially as a novice. This isn't to discount the many conveniences and possibilities offered to more experienced users by a plugin -- but novices are very important to me.

Sorry, this is running in circles now.
Every experienced user once was a novice and he/she became experienced by, well, experience.

See, Tracktion 4 is free for OSX, Linux and Mac. It has a node based matrix where you can connect plugins in whatever way you like. You could give your novice a link to Tracktion and some example files to load and create some videos showing the setup and how to work with it.
That would make your novice more experienced and he/she could start recording right away.

Since you already have the standalone, your hypothetical case of it being easier to use than a plugin is covered, right?
So there is only one thing missing: the VST...

Great to hear that you finally go for it.

Cheers and all the best luck to you!

Tom

[deastman]

deastman -- imitone is designed to detect periodicity, meaning the inharmonic vocal fry register does not and probably never will track well. If you want to control super-deep sounds, stick to the modal register and transpose down as needed.

Zero-crossings can work on vocal fry by counting the clicks over a period of time, but you'd never be able to achieve realtime latency with that approach. imitone's algorithm was prototyped before I knew what a resonant filter was, and its key element is the SAHIR -- a harmonic isolator unit that rapidly changes its fundamental frequency to "lock onto" and "follow" tones.

Well, I wasn't deliberately trying to control super-deep sounds. I simply opened my mouth to sing, and that's the way it came out! I'm not new to the concept of transposing a synth.

As for your algorithm- the SAHIR- I'm not familiar with that, but it kind of sounds like you're describing a Kalman filter.

[Compyfox]

Research and development on new algorithms is hard and takes a large, unpredictable amount of time. Software development is easy and predictable by comparison. Ergo, porting to VST won't take nearly so long as these improvements to the system did. Lots of good points have been raised here, so I'll begin investigating a VST port alongside the next update -- but I will make no guarantees about when it will surface.

Wrong (IMO)!
You don't say that you don't know when it will surface - not at this point anymore. You say that you plan to release it by 1st December (or mid December)! That's 3 weeks form now.

Reason why:
a) your backers wait for it since May 2014 (the stretch goal for VST was reached April 2014!, Beta released in early May 2014 - so over 1,5 years since then!). Additional to that, I don't even know if you ever released an Android Version. That goal was also reached, yet I never saw an APK for it floating around. And I don't know how the iOS users respond to this (75k stretch goal).

b) you got the main code down (as you call: R&D - research and development), you only need to port it (see previous posts with the offered engines)

c) 2380 backers, 1493 that went for Imitone Standard, 597 that went for Imitone prime

d) you have a lot of really annoyed users (a lot of them are backers) at your hands (see this thread!)



This is called damage control, Evan.

compyfox -- Many very good points about the website, which I individually and lovingly addressed in my deleted reply. I have taken them to heart and copied them to my notes.

I really hope to see a massive overhaul in this case.

I'm just an interested party, patient even. But the way the communication is working currently, is really off-putting for outsiders. And also for your backers (especially those that did not ask for a refund yet).



EDIT:

The free option is JACK Audio Connection Kit for Windows and the commercial option is O Deus ASIO Link Pro.

This is another hoop I'd rather not jump through and mess with my drivers.

On top of that, the "commercial option" costs me 49,95AUD (about 33EUR/35,50USD) on top of the (currently) 25USD for Imitone Standard and 60USD for Imitone Prime/Studio.

In case of Drums Anywhere Pro (the only version that has MIDI out): 120USD/112EUR on top of that. For something that should work hassle free on any OS.


Would you go that route?!

[tonedef71]

EDIT:

The free option is JACK Audio Connection Kit for Windows and the commercial option is O Deus ASIO Link Pro.

This is another hoop I'd rather not jump through and mess with my drivers.

On top of that, the "commercial option" costs me 49,95AUD (about 33EUR/35,50USD) on top of the (currently) 25USD for Imitone Standard and 60USD for Imitone Prime/Studio.

Would you go that route?!

I purchased a license of ASIO O Deus ASIO Link Pro well before I learned about the Imitone Kickstarter; so I already owned it anyway. As far as I'm concerned, it is one of the best investments I have made. With an ASIO wrapper driver, ASIO is so much more usable on Windows; no more will ASIO4ALL hijack your laptop's audio driver! Setting up ASIO Link Pro is not difficult (no hoops to jump through) and it appears to add no additional latency. Apart from being able to use one ASIO driver across multiple audio applications in Windows, it offers other features which I actually do not use myself (e.g. audio over a network connection).

If you do not wish to spend additional money, the open-source JACK Audio Connection Kit is an excellent free alternative that really is no burden to setup; you can download and install the QJackCtl GUI configuration tool which you can setup to start automatically when Windows starts. I also recommend using JACK with the Virtual Hi-Fi Cable and ASIO Bridge; this driver/software package allows you to mix output from non-ASIO drivers (e.g. WDM) into JACK as well. Please check out my JACK thread on the Music Developments sub-forum: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 8&t=428605

If you are worried about the possibility of messing up the drivers on your PC where you run your DAW, I suggest trying it out on another PC; JACK Audio Connection Kit and ASIO4ALL are the minimum you need to get started. Add some free Windows audio apps to kick the tires (e.g. WinAMP; MuseScore; etc.) When you are comfortable with that setup, then try it out with your music production PC.

By the way, many excellent add-on applications exist that work with the JACK audio port driver (e.g. virtual MIDI patch bay): http://www.jackaudio.org/applications/

[Compyfox]

Are you genuinely trying to convince me to get such drivers, just to justify the developers lack of interest for compatibility other than on a Mac?!

Why in my right mind, as somebody that uses Cubase and Wavelab, sometimes still Reason 3 or ReBirth (both, that use the ReWire technology) but nothing else, should I get and use such a driver wrapper?!


The only reason I seem fit to use it, is because of connecting saviHost (or similar) with it, to run IKM ARC through it, so that I can use my media players with IKM ARC. And for this, JACK is an absolute clusterf*ck, so is ASIO4all btw. And in my 20+ years of being into music making and audio engineering, I've seen and tried a lot.

I don't record Let's Plays, neither do I record Skype calls (there are stand alone tools for that without jumping hoops), I also don't host any radio shows or Twitch streams.


Why should I jump through hoops if I don't have to?!

[highkoo]

Informative posts tonedef71!
But yeah, if this tech does not become a Windows VST, or as plug-n-play as one, it is wasted.
That said, I have some hope left, and wish the development all the best.

Up the ante; Put a date on a vst.. delta, at least.

[tonedef71]

Are you genuinely trying to convince me to get such drivers, just to justify the developers lack of interest for compatibility other than on a Mac?!

No. You had made mention of the ASIO driver sharing problem, which is a frustrating problem for any Windows user who wishes to use an ASIO driver across multiple Windows audio applications. Also, ASIO4All is used by many folks and while it is great for wrapping one's PC audio driver as an ASIO driver, when using it, the native PC audio driver is unavailable until released by the ASIO driver. I just thought I would share with you and the other folks on this thread how this issue can be dealt with by describing what I have done to bypass the issue.

This ASIO driver sharing problem, by the way, is not specific to Imitone. Unless you have multiple audio cards with multiple ASIO drivers; you use the native PC audio driver (and do not use ASIO4All) along with a hardware-speciifc ASIO driver; or you only ever have one audio application open at a time, you are bound to encounter the ASIO driver sharing problem at some point.

[tonedef71]

Informative posts tonedef71!

Thanks! I hope that they were helpful for folks.

Cheers.
ToneDeF

[Compyfox]

This ASIO driver sharing problem, by the way, is not specific to Imitone. Unless you have multiple audio cards with multiple ASIO drivers; you use the native PC audio driver (and do not use ASIO4All) along with a hardware-speciifc ASIO driver; or you only ever have one audio application open at a time, you are bound to encounter the ASIO driver sharing problem at some point.

I am personally aware of that issue, since I tried to use several audio cards at once back in the day, and it didn't work out. So tools like JACK and similar are a solution. Also if you want to mix and match - and I really wish such solutions would have been available back in the day.

Again - I am aware. Others are not. So this extra bit of information (paragraph) is appreciated.


But it should not(!) be the ultimate excuse for these companies.

[klinik]

AFAIK those "solutions" are not prol solutions, I mean, I can´t get low latencies (32-64samples) and also more important, sync issues (not sample accurate sync between cards) and jittering. Useless for a Professional enviroment

[tonedef71]

AFAIK those "solutions" are not prol solutions, I mean, I can´t get low latencies (32-64samples) and also more important, sync issues (not sample accurate sync between cards) and jittering. Useless for a Professional enviroment

Just curious. Have you recently tried O Deus ASIO Link Pro with a hardware ASIO driver to see how low a latency you could get? Performance may have improved since you last tried it. An un-registered copy of ASIO Link Pro will cut out the audio output every ten seconds or so (which is annoying), but you should still be able to test latency, buffering, jitter etc. with it.

[interactopia]

Re: All this ASIO business, I don't in any way expect novice users to know what ASIO is, much less have ASIO4ALL or a connection kit installed. I provide Kernel Mode (WDM-KS) input for this reason. (ASIO4ALL is actually an ASIO to WDM-KS adapter, which is very good at picking out the lowest-latency configuration.)

(In the long run I wouldn't mind just making an imitone peripheral, which could bypass the whole mess.)

You don't say that you don't know when it will surface - not at this point anymore. You say that you plan to release it by 1st December (or mid December)! That's 3 weeks form now.

I have tried and failed several times to predict the schedule for imitone, and I'll gladly accept criticism about that. I had no idea how much work would be necessary to take the tech to the next level, and even now I'm unsure as to whether I'll want to push it another full generation before 1.0. (Probably not.)

a) your backers wait for it since May 2014 (the stretch goal for VST was reached April 2014!, Beta released in early May 2014 - so over 1,5 years since then!). Additional to that, I don't even know if you ever released an Android Version. That goal was also reached, yet I never saw an APK for it floating around. And I don't know how the iOS users respond to this (75k stretch goal).

I had the software in my backers' hands a month and a day after the Kickstarter ended -- and that puts me ahead of the vast majority of crowdfunded software and hardware projects. As a beta user, you have access to the latest improvements -- would you be better served if I ported the code, called it finished and ceased development, or if I continued beta development for some months (adding VST along the way) until the technology is perfected?

During the campaign, I made it clear that my general plan was to fulfill stretch goals after the main project, in order to avoid delaying the release of the main product. (Most over-funded Kickstarter campaigns end up being delivered later as a result of scope inflation.) That said, the discussion here has me investigating a VST port during the beta, as mentioned in my last post.

(If you're curious what made me tip, it was learning that pro audio setups frequently involve disabling system audio drivers and route everything through a single interface -- making the standalone actually impossible to use without virtual audio cables.)

b) you got the main code down (as you call: R&D - research and development), you only need to port it

It's not there, yet. The technology might have crossed the threshold from "neat" to "useful", but it still leaves a lot to be desired. The next few updates will also add features (hold mode & hard triggering) which I expect to become some of the most useful in the software.

I was a port engineer for some years prior to working on imitone; to be clear, that is not a big challenge for me -- just a substantial investment of time that will displace other work. Given that I have received reports of only one (!!) major bug so far in imitone 0.8.0, it's easier to make time for porting than I expected.


Miscellaneous note: I've tracked down the source of my site & downloads being flagged as malware and I'm taking care of it. (VirusTotal is awesome for this.)

[Compyfox]

Evan, again, I am not the person to tell you what to do. I'm not on the Backers List, neither do I have a license yet(!). I'm still speculating with one, but the Windows Driver Sharing topic is a huge turnoff. So is the thread and your answers to be honest.

However... if I'd be in your place, I'd stop R&D (actually, more like D as in "Development") and port first, THEN continue with the development. Period!


Now here is why:
You just confirmed that Beta 0.8 seems to be stable - no huge showstopper according to your testers/backers. You also now pretty much admit/confirm yourself that a standalone solution is only outmaneuvering your efforts in releasing your tool as "finished version". Because of the main design flaw - driver usage. So what is stopping you from porting it?

If you now also switch coding engines (however, I yesterday heard very bad news about JUCE - it being bought up, license fees going up drastically as well), you can still(!) continue to create a standalone version, and code the VST version in parallel. I work for a couple of companies that have this this workflow (code on Macintosh, then hit "render" and they get several versions at once!) - and it's not stopping them from releasing anything. Especially not early betas.


So once more - why the hold up?!
The fundamental usability is there!



And if you still insist on a standalone version - another developer just wrote me today "our standalone tool does not use the device/driver in exclusive mode". Maybe this is a culprit for a workaround for the time being.

But seriously... please stop the excuses. Especially if the eyes are on you now with this thread and(!) your successful Kickstarter campaign.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, I think the technology will ALWAYS leave something to be desired so it makes much more sense to make it available to all users now after all this time, otherwise you won't even get bugreports from those who could really put it through it's paces.

I didn't even try the beta out myself yet since I don't look forward to going through the trouble of getting it to work again on my system...

As for JUCE/Roli - yeah, that may become a less good solution in the future, but there are others as was mentioned before in this thread. VSTgui also comes to mind. And you can always ask in the dev forum here on KVR for more guidance from those who really know this stuff in and out.

Best of luck,

Tom

[deastman]

You've mentioned many times that your goal is to make something which novices could use without any proficiency on an instrument. I'm curious- do you have any sense of what percentage of your actual users are such novices? I can assure you that no one on this forum is a novice, and we are all either backers or potential future customers. Its noble of you to want to change the world, and I'm not dismissing that objective in any way, but don't you think your priorities might shift if you were to learn that 99% of your backers were experienced musicians? Sending out a poll might be informative... who knows- maybe we're just a small, vocal minority here at KVR.