Having said a bunch of nonsense about the complaints regarding IK I have decided, instead, to invite forum members into a discussion about the issues and whether any of the solutions offered really worked.
One thing that I have is that the various credits/jam points are rather complicated hence I have been wondering whether it might be better to have a subscription model upfront or go back to the original model. One price.
Issues with IK?
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- KVRAF
- 16977 posts since 23 Jun, 2010 from north of London ON
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
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- KVRAF
- 4469 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell
OK, i'll bite. there are several big gripes that i have with IK.
the resale market is all but non-existent due to IK's pricing and resale decisions. first of all, nothing bought with credits can be resold. second of all, the stuff that can be sold, incurs a mind-boggling resale penalty, and due to various sales is quickly devalued, so you can't really sell anything IK without incurring severe losses. of course, the other side of that coin is i'm perfectly happy to buy IK stuff at fire sale prices when i'm 100% sure i'll make use of the product and am unlikely to sell it, but my worry is, not all people understand what they are getting into when they are buying IK stuff.
with regards to jam points and credits, i actually do understand their purpose and have no beef with them. my only issue isn't really related to IK, but to the fact that we have to pay VAT here in EU, and price after jam points ends up being essentially the same as what people pay in the rest of the world without any discounts. so i found it better to wait for reseller sales and buy there - this ends up being a bigger discount than i will ever get with jam points. the only situation i ever used jampoints in was SampleTank 3 preorder (due to it not being available in Custom Shop) and iRig UA.
the problem people often have with gear credits stems from the fact that they think of gear credits as money equivalent. it's not. it's a volume discount mechanism. there is no specific monetary value associated with a gear credit. you can buy stuff with real money, but it's more expensive even when buying the same amount in gear credits, let alone when buying gear credits in bulk. once you let go of the idea of gear credits being a kind of "money", everything becomes easy as pie: jam points can only be used in conjunction with real money, gear credits are entirely separate.
i also have huge gripe with IK marketing materials. more often than not, it is very hard, from the product description, to understand exactly what the product entails and how is it different from previous versions. four paragraphs of various ways to say "our product is awesome" (which is often true IMO), but very little mention of actual, concrete information. i almost wish they had a FAQ for each product, with answers to commonly asked questions. and not the stupid "how do i install X" but the ones that get asked by real, competent customers - what is old and what is new in Miroslav 2, what is available in the demo for Amplitube 4, does it have 32-bit version, what is included with this or that version...
i also have issues with individual IK products (missing features from Amplitube and T-Racks, lack of integration, constant nagging with unpurchased gear, etc.), but i assume this thread isn't about them.
the resale market is all but non-existent due to IK's pricing and resale decisions. first of all, nothing bought with credits can be resold. second of all, the stuff that can be sold, incurs a mind-boggling resale penalty, and due to various sales is quickly devalued, so you can't really sell anything IK without incurring severe losses. of course, the other side of that coin is i'm perfectly happy to buy IK stuff at fire sale prices when i'm 100% sure i'll make use of the product and am unlikely to sell it, but my worry is, not all people understand what they are getting into when they are buying IK stuff.
with regards to jam points and credits, i actually do understand their purpose and have no beef with them. my only issue isn't really related to IK, but to the fact that we have to pay VAT here in EU, and price after jam points ends up being essentially the same as what people pay in the rest of the world without any discounts. so i found it better to wait for reseller sales and buy there - this ends up being a bigger discount than i will ever get with jam points. the only situation i ever used jampoints in was SampleTank 3 preorder (due to it not being available in Custom Shop) and iRig UA.
the problem people often have with gear credits stems from the fact that they think of gear credits as money equivalent. it's not. it's a volume discount mechanism. there is no specific monetary value associated with a gear credit. you can buy stuff with real money, but it's more expensive even when buying the same amount in gear credits, let alone when buying gear credits in bulk. once you let go of the idea of gear credits being a kind of "money", everything becomes easy as pie: jam points can only be used in conjunction with real money, gear credits are entirely separate.
i also have huge gripe with IK marketing materials. more often than not, it is very hard, from the product description, to understand exactly what the product entails and how is it different from previous versions. four paragraphs of various ways to say "our product is awesome" (which is often true IMO), but very little mention of actual, concrete information. i almost wish they had a FAQ for each product, with answers to commonly asked questions. and not the stupid "how do i install X" but the ones that get asked by real, competent customers - what is old and what is new in Miroslav 2, what is available in the demo for Amplitube 4, does it have 32-bit version, what is included with this or that version...
i also have issues with individual IK products (missing features from Amplitube and T-Racks, lack of integration, constant nagging with unpurchased gear, etc.), but i assume this thread isn't about them.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 16977 posts since 23 Jun, 2010 from north of London ON
I will say that the tech issues are also important as well. So please don't hesitate to post them.
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
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- KVRAF
- 9134 posts since 28 Apr, 2013
IBTL.The 'Double Bind'.
The less I deal with them, the less issue I have...
And yet, there are some things that have had such great potential that the unfulfilled promises of the past have not kept me from looking when something 'new' is posted.
I will add here also, that there are certain softwares that bring up their own worth by having absolutely no resale value (and hence bring their overall purchase value into question from the very start). IK-M; Wusik; KV331 are at the top of that list for me. And they seem to have much in common in their underlying philosophies as well.
I have come to consider these products as part of the ritual in being a KVR member though as a hazing in the "OU-bot-12" club.
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- KVRian
- 1159 posts since 9 Apr, 2012
Wow, good post about the jam point thingy. Thx for that. Never understood that system. I have only read about it (and the tons of affiliated topics covering numerous issues with the jam point system) and was not sure if I should use it or not.Burillo wrote:OK, i'll bite. there are several big gripes that i have with IK.
the resale market is all but non-existent due to IK's pricing and resale decisions. first of all, nothing bought with credits can be resold. second of all, the stuff that can be sold, incurs a mind-boggling resale penalty, and due to various sales is quickly devalued, so you can't really sell anything IK without incurring severe losses. of course, the other side of that coin is i'm perfectly happy to buy IK stuff at fire sale prices when i'm 100% sure i'll make use of the product and am unlikely to sell it, but my worry is, not all people understand what they are getting into when they are buying IK stuff.
with regards to jam points and credits, i actually do understand their purpose and have no beef with them. my only issue isn't really related to IK, but to the fact that we have to pay VAT here in EU, and price after jam points ends up being essentially the same as what people pay in the rest of the world without any discounts. so i found it better to wait for reseller sales and buy there - this ends up being a bigger discount than i will ever get with jam points. the only situation i ever used jampoints in was SampleTank 3 preorder (due to it not being available in Custom Shop) and iRig UA.
the problem people often have with gear credits stems from the fact that they think of gear credits as money equivalent. it's not. it's a volume discount mechanism. there is no specific monetary value associated with a gear credit. you can buy stuff with real money, but it's more expensive even when buying the same amount in gear credits, let alone when buying gear credits in bulk. once you let go of the idea of gear credits being a kind of "money", everything becomes easy as pie: jam points can only be used in conjunction with real money, gear credits are entirely separate.
i also have huge gripe with IK marketing materials. more often than not, it is very hard, from the product description, to understand exactly what the product entails and how is it different from previous versions. four paragraphs of various ways to say "our product is awesome" (which is often true IMO), but very little mention of actual, concrete information. i almost wish they had a FAQ for each product, with answers to commonly asked questions. and not the stupid "how do i install X" but the ones that get asked by real, competent customers - what is old and what is new in Miroslav 2, what is available in the demo for Amplitube 4, does it have 32-bit version, what is included with this or that version...
i also have issues with individual IK products (missing features from Amplitube and T-Racks, lack of integration, constant nagging with unpurchased gear, etc.), but i assume this thread isn't about them.
Other than that I have no probs with IKM at all. I love their products. Great sound, great performance, no complaints from me. Great support. Only their manuals suck IMHO. But that is not only IKM related.
Cheers
Sebastian
Underground Music Production: Sound Design, Machine Funk, High Tech Soul
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- KVRAF
- 3362 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota
I've never understood the logic of bulk marketing when it comes to audio software. Surely there has to be some passion in there to make excellent software instead of just making tons of money. After all, there are much more lucrative avenues to take for software development than audio software. I know there are a few exceptions, like NI and camel audio (buyout) but those are extremely rare in this field. Is it about ego?
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
I think the transition to the Custom Shop model has been difficult for IK, that introduced lots of confusion and while I understand and can appreciate the jam points/gear credits thing, it confuses many, which may be counterproductive for IK, I dunno. I think there have been missteps in implementation and marketing, and there are some things I want to see fixed in their products, but I like IK's products, I like the Custom Shop model, and I appreciate Peter hanging out in what is often a hostile environment trying to answer our questions and resolve our issues. Is Peter perfect, is IK? Am I? It is an imperfect world and just like any developer, IK has their issues. They have a lot more products to support than many, and not just DAW software, so there's that too, I just don't think IK can ever be as nimble as a developer focussed on just a few plugins, and feel it is unrealistic to expect them to be.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRian
- 1367 posts since 30 Jul, 2013
I've found Peter and IKM to be fine people as far as customer support goes and generally very helpful.
My gripe is that they seem to push the edges of ethics as far as what we are going to tell you when. They add instruments at the end of a buy one get many sale that are better than any available at the beginning in an effort to get more 'repeat' customers. They sample new classical instruments to release after the new 'be all and end all rompler" Sampletank 3. ST3 has poor classical orchestral instruments that somehow got lost in the hype of the good pianos, generally good band instruments and nice new pop orchestral. Including a solid subset of the new Miroslav and then offering an additional 35 gigs of samples in a new instrument would be fine, but just recycling multi decade old Miroslav knowing that the 'good' samples were either on the horizon or already in the vaults seems very iffy to me on what was promoted as a massive new library. Note that I'll say the same of NI with Kontakt 6 if they ship it with the same sample library as 5 after all the sampling they are doing for their new orchestral line.
My gripe is that they seem to push the edges of ethics as far as what we are going to tell you when. They add instruments at the end of a buy one get many sale that are better than any available at the beginning in an effort to get more 'repeat' customers. They sample new classical instruments to release after the new 'be all and end all rompler" Sampletank 3. ST3 has poor classical orchestral instruments that somehow got lost in the hype of the good pianos, generally good band instruments and nice new pop orchestral. Including a solid subset of the new Miroslav and then offering an additional 35 gigs of samples in a new instrument would be fine, but just recycling multi decade old Miroslav knowing that the 'good' samples were either on the horizon or already in the vaults seems very iffy to me on what was promoted as a massive new library. Note that I'll say the same of NI with Kontakt 6 if they ship it with the same sample library as 5 after all the sampling they are doing for their new orchestral line.
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
From the adverts it sounds like the majority is new content, only some of it is old, reworked and reintroduced, which I think is great. Trilian for example includes Trilogy samples, I've found that useful strategy to give the buyer more options. As for quality, I'm no orchestral expert, but I do think you may be misrepresenting the release a bit bigcat.
Each of these new sounds has been recorded at the Czech National Symphony Orchestra, a space that's been used by such legendary figures as Andrea Bocelli, Ennio Morricone, Lalo Schifrin and, of course, Miroslav Vitous himself.
Ecstasy. Passion. Joy.
Miroslav Philharmonik 2's instruments and sounds are able to convey the emotion and humanity of the musician behind each note. This makes it a perfect choice for when a more delicate or expressive touch is required: Like when scoring tragic love stories, recording romantic R&B ballads or adding symphonic grandeur to gothic metal anthems.
Every new sound includes its own articulations that can be accessed either via a convenient key switching system that lets musicians instantly play flowing legatos, animated pizzicatos, aggressive spiccatos, elegant staccatos, triumphant fortissimos and more. All articulations are also available as individual instruments.
In addition to the new sounds, Miroslav Philharmonik 2 also comes with an updated library of instruments from the original Miroslav Philharmonik. These classic instruments have been enhanced to take advantage of the new SampleTank 3 technology powering Miroslav Philharmonik 2. This provides more possibilities for sonic sculpting than ever before: All instruments now come with 8 macro controls (as opposed to 4) that control features like a 3-band EQ, a filter cutoff and envelope parameters like attack and release that are perfect for on-the-fly adjustments.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Has anyone here purchased this yet?
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 16977 posts since 23 Jun, 2010 from north of London ON
I think you hit the nail on the head here. I have tried to refrain from calling it an ego thing but I am starting to get the same thing here.masterhiggins wrote:I've never understood the logic of bulk marketing when it comes to audio software. Surely there has to be some passion in there to make excellent software instead of just making tons of money. After all, there are much more lucrative avenues to take for software development than audio software. I know there are a few exceptions, like NI and camel audio (buyout) but those are extremely rare in this field. Is it about ego?
All the email stuff makes me feel like this.
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 16977 posts since 23 Jun, 2010 from north of London ON
I am going to... just out of curiosity.braj wrote:Has anyone here purchased this yet?
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
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- KVRAF
- 4469 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell
it's not really about technical issues though, more the stuff along the lines of "T-Racks installing demos of every plugin with every update and polluting my plugin folder", "Amplitube missing off axis mic placement", "Sampletank 3 lacking macro assignment" and stuff like that. it's not really IK related as much as it is specific product-related.trimph1 wrote:I will say that the tech issues are also important as well. So please don't hesitate to post them.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 16977 posts since 23 Jun, 2010 from north of London ON
That was the thing I should have referred to. Sorry for the mix up.Burillo wrote:it's not really about technical issues though, more the stuff along the lines of "T-Racks installing demos of every plugin with every update and polluting my plugin folder", "Amplitube missing off axis mic placement", "Sampletank 3 lacking macro assignment" and stuff like that. it's not really IK related as much as it is specific product-related.trimph1 wrote:I will say that the tech issues are also important as well. So please don't hesitate to post them.
And, yes, please post your issues with them
Barry
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
If a billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing
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- KVRian
- 1367 posts since 30 Jul, 2013
I should clarify, my gripe is that in my opinion IKM should have included better orchestral samples in ST3.
I have no problem with what appears to be included in Miroslav 2, though I would like more info on things like per note sampling and velocity layers and the like. From the limited information available it appears to be a fine update to the original with significant new samples. Personally I blew my money on a TV and a subscription to a streaming college courses lecture type series so I can't afford it right now otherwise I would consider it even with my occasionally grump attitude. Plus gotta save up for K6 for obvious reasons being me...
As a side note does anyone else get the BSOD occasionally right after messing with ST3?
I have no problem with what appears to be included in Miroslav 2, though I would like more info on things like per note sampling and velocity layers and the like. From the limited information available it appears to be a fine update to the original with significant new samples. Personally I blew my money on a TV and a subscription to a streaming college courses lecture type series so I can't afford it right now otherwise I would consider it even with my occasionally grump attitude. Plus gotta save up for K6 for obvious reasons being me...
As a side note does anyone else get the BSOD occasionally right after messing with ST3?