For the first time in my life i see that person is going to pay for buyback out of his pocket.
Push 2 price = Push 1 initial price + Push 1 buyback price.
I think it's such a lovely spitting in the face by Ableton.
Push 2 - will it kick start my creative juices ?
-
david.beholder david.beholder https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=159839 - KVRAF
- 1914 posts since 13 Sep, 2007
Murderous duck!
-
- KVRian
- 1374 posts since 30 Mar, 2011
I guess there's a slight confusion about what the phrase "making a track" nowadays means. A lof of people who are "making tracks" on Youtube just make some kind of "extended loops".
Push is very suitable for making "extended loops", but for finishing a track you have to go back to the computer. Even if they now put a nice colorful display on the Push 2, there has still a computer to be around. Maybe Ableton should focus next on a touch version of their DAW? A tablet/Push combination would be a great 'instrument'.
As I play piano I would not need those scale functions, but I have to say that it's fun to jump around on those nice blinking pads to explore musical ideas, and it has aftertouch (what you don't find easy on mid price midi controllers.) I'm used to sequence my beats with the piano roll, so I don't use the step sequencing that much.
I wouldn't say that Push has improved my creativity, but if you like to perform music in real time it is a great addition to Live.
Push is very suitable for making "extended loops", but for finishing a track you have to go back to the computer. Even if they now put a nice colorful display on the Push 2, there has still a computer to be around. Maybe Ableton should focus next on a touch version of their DAW? A tablet/Push combination would be a great 'instrument'.
As I play piano I would not need those scale functions, but I have to say that it's fun to jump around on those nice blinking pads to explore musical ideas, and it has aftertouch (what you don't find easy on mid price midi controllers.) I'm used to sequence my beats with the piano roll, so I don't use the step sequencing that much.
I wouldn't say that Push has improved my creativity, but if you like to perform music in real time it is a great addition to Live.
-
- KVRist
- 250 posts since 8 May, 2015
I agree with you. I'm in two mind about Push 2, and haven't used Push 1. As a long term Live user I cant work out if it will enhance my workflow or truncate it into a more loopy direction. It's annoying that every single demo is the same type of poor quality 'American dance style' or simplistic house. I can't figure this out as I haven't used one.2ZrgE wrote:I guess there's a slight confusion about what the phrase "making a track" nowadays means. A lof of people who are "making tracks" on Youtube just make some kind of "extended loops".
Push is very suitable for making "extended loops", but for finishing a track you have to go back to the computer. Even if they now put a nice colorful display on the Push 2, there has still a computer to be around. Maybe Ableton should focus next on a touch version of their DAW? A tablet/Push combination would be a great 'instrument'.
As I play piano I would not need those scale functions, but I have to say that it's fun to jump around on those nice blinking pads to explore musical ideas, and it has aftertouch (what you don't find easy on mid price midi controllers.) I'm used to sequence my beats with the piano roll, so I don't use the step sequencing that much.
I wouldn't say that Push has improved my creativity, but if you like to perform music in real time it is a great addition to Live.
I'm guessing it can compliment a more organic approach especially with the Simpler slicing, which would integrate with my hardware synth recording nicely. I'm very tempted by it for drum production, integration with the filters which looks great. The scale functions look cool but do they also narrow the exploration of interesting, new melodies, or indeed help it? I'm not sure.
I think as you say it's more like a great instrument / controller to compliment a workflow, most of the demos' tracks are very simplistic - I couldn't use it as whole track creation device. I cant help but feel it would benefit from a more a highly sophisticated drum synth engine too.... better that M4L's.
I'm just in two minds...
-
- KVRAF
- 2990 posts since 13 Apr, 2008 from Charleston, SC
I agree with the confusion about "making a track". And yes most of the demos are 2-3 minutes of just building on what will be a four bar loop that has some tweaks here and there. And that really is what attracted me to it...
The reason I say this is that most of my many thousands of recording projects have been very linear. I know my way inside and out around Cubase and have written songs, done heavy vocal productions, and even orchestral style scores in it. But many times I have had this great 4 bar idea that, when created in Cubase, becomes difficult to revisit. There is no "block" or "clip mode" like Reason and Ableton respectively. There is no way to work a context around it once you have began. Ok there is, but it becomes more convoluted than creative.
In having Push 2 for a few days I have gone back in to Ableton (which I have owned for a long time but never used-never "got it") and have taken several of my 4 bar ideas and developed them into finished pieces. Granted, you do have to go back to your computer to work with the arrangement. But I own a Panorama and still have to look at my screen in Cubase.
I really do not know who feels that working from the screen of a computer is soooo bad. And yet for some that is the biggest selling point for products like Push and Panorama. I just don't feel that way. They are tools that make me more efficient in the software I am working with. Even where I am not more efficient, I am more immersed which gives me more space for creativity.
But that might just be my workflow. I am also a sim racer. Guys with joysticks are faster reacting but I wouldn't trade my $2000 wheel and pedals for anything! It is immersive and makes me work harder to beat their times, as well as best my own. That is my workflow in pretty much everything.
The reason I say this is that most of my many thousands of recording projects have been very linear. I know my way inside and out around Cubase and have written songs, done heavy vocal productions, and even orchestral style scores in it. But many times I have had this great 4 bar idea that, when created in Cubase, becomes difficult to revisit. There is no "block" or "clip mode" like Reason and Ableton respectively. There is no way to work a context around it once you have began. Ok there is, but it becomes more convoluted than creative.
In having Push 2 for a few days I have gone back in to Ableton (which I have owned for a long time but never used-never "got it") and have taken several of my 4 bar ideas and developed them into finished pieces. Granted, you do have to go back to your computer to work with the arrangement. But I own a Panorama and still have to look at my screen in Cubase.
I really do not know who feels that working from the screen of a computer is soooo bad. And yet for some that is the biggest selling point for products like Push and Panorama. I just don't feel that way. They are tools that make me more efficient in the software I am working with. Even where I am not more efficient, I am more immersed which gives me more space for creativity.
But that might just be my workflow. I am also a sim racer. Guys with joysticks are faster reacting but I wouldn't trade my $2000 wheel and pedals for anything! It is immersive and makes me work harder to beat their times, as well as best my own. That is my workflow in pretty much everything.
-
- KVRian
- 1374 posts since 30 Mar, 2011
I agree about the thing about working in front of a screen - for me it feels completely ok, I'm fast at it and I'm used to it since my childhood days. In the end it's not so bad. When I "produce" I produce - when I want to "make music" or "perform" I just go and play piano or guitar.
What Ableton also had in mind were people who like to perform in front of an audience, of course it's not very 'sexy' to stare at a laptop screen when you are performing your work. But if you sit in your bedroom studio it's a different situation. I'm much better with my midi keyboard when composing, and I only bought Push because I got a really fine discount. Push 2 is much too expensive for me - but I'm sure it's that kind of gadget a lot of people with money and GAS buy but then never or rarely use it.
A lot of people on Youtube own Push, but in their videos they almost never use it - makes you think if you don't already own it.
What Ableton also had in mind were people who like to perform in front of an audience, of course it's not very 'sexy' to stare at a laptop screen when you are performing your work. But if you sit in your bedroom studio it's a different situation. I'm much better with my midi keyboard when composing, and I only bought Push because I got a really fine discount. Push 2 is much too expensive for me - but I'm sure it's that kind of gadget a lot of people with money and GAS buy but then never or rarely use it.
A lot of people on Youtube own Push, but in their videos they almost never use it - makes you think if you don't already own it.
-
- KVRian
- 1121 posts since 11 Sep, 2008 from UK
I have to say though, that Push 2 is streets ahead of the original Push. It's so much better in every way. I very much doubt that it will end up gathering dust in studio corners. It's fast, intuitive and inspiring. And fun!
-
- KVRAF
- 4340 posts since 8 Mar, 2005
This brings up a very good point about computer screens and hardware controllers like push/maschine.
Isn't it funny, back in the 90s having an external monitor to connect your hardware to, was actually a GREAT thing and would be touted as its biggest feature. Roland MV series came out just in the 2000s and it touted VGA monitor out as a good selling point. As did some hardware 'daw' workstations.
Fast forward 10 years and all of a sudden a computer screen is BAD and it is better if you can work without a monitor - which seems to be the big selling point of all these things.
Funny business this is. Just today I saw my box for Kontakt 1.x and wondered how much it would be worth. Probably nothing, but ah the power it contains! Few decades back it would have been worth millions! How spoiled we are.
Isn't it funny, back in the 90s having an external monitor to connect your hardware to, was actually a GREAT thing and would be touted as its biggest feature. Roland MV series came out just in the 2000s and it touted VGA monitor out as a good selling point. As did some hardware 'daw' workstations.
Fast forward 10 years and all of a sudden a computer screen is BAD and it is better if you can work without a monitor - which seems to be the big selling point of all these things.
Funny business this is. Just today I saw my box for Kontakt 1.x and wondered how much it would be worth. Probably nothing, but ah the power it contains! Few decades back it would have been worth millions! How spoiled we are.
-
- KVRist
- 250 posts since 8 May, 2015
Yeah I don't get the 'screen is bad' thing - I just want something that enhances that experience.keyman_sam wrote:This brings up a very good point about computer screens and hardware controllers like push/maschine.
Isn't it funny, back in the 90s having an external monitor to connect your hardware to, was actually a GREAT thing and would be touted as its biggest feature. Roland MV series came out just in the 2000s and it touted VGA monitor out as a good selling point. As did some hardware 'daw' workstations.
Fast forward 10 years and all of a sudden a computer screen is BAD and it is better if you can work without a monitor - which seems to be the big selling point of all these things.
Funny business this is. Just today I saw my box for Kontakt 1.x and wondered how much it would be worth. Probably nothing, but ah the power it contains! Few decades back it would have been worth millions! How spoiled we are.
If they marketed it like that I'd be way more interested. This is why I'm interested by those who use it to enhance their screen looking workflow.
On another note this guy is making some of the best tutorial / push 2 vids out there -
-
- KVRAF
- 4589 posts since 7 Jun, 2012 from Warsaw
The big screen is good if you want to dive deep into synthesis or mixdown. The hands-on gear is to get the stuff done quickly and add some real-time improvisation to you music.
Blog ------------- YouTube channel
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)
-
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 966 posts since 28 Sep, 2002 from UK
Getting stuff done quick is good for me !
Haven't got the time to dive deep into synthesis, arranging, mixing etc. (too many other commitments).
Quite often I'll just pick up me geetars as DAW work is so time consuming. Guitars were £400 & £650 a piece, so guess I shouldn't be too horrified at spending 500 squid on something that could also give me quick satisfaction / inspiration when the moment takes me (and doesn't require me to be glued to the DAW)
Haven't got the time to dive deep into synthesis, arranging, mixing etc. (too many other commitments).
Quite often I'll just pick up me geetars as DAW work is so time consuming. Guitars were £400 & £650 a piece, so guess I shouldn't be too horrified at spending 500 squid on something that could also give me quick satisfaction / inspiration when the moment takes me (and doesn't require me to be glued to the DAW)
If God did exist (and he doesn't) he would answer to the name of Maurizio
-
- KVRist
- 307 posts since 8 Oct, 2012
I think the "why the screen is bad" all of a sudden is a really valid point, as it's important not to create a new dogma especially as people have pointed out that the screens were touted as the saviour not too long ago.
I'm a Push 1 owner, who bought it in the recent sale, and for the most part am a "believer" in the positive effect. But I can appreciate the other side of the argument, and I think a point a lot of people miss is that a well designed hardware interface and a well designed software interface have more in common with each other than the physical differences (in my view at least). In other words badly designed h/w and s/w, or even design that just doesn't suit an individual, are the workflow / inspiration killers.
A big part of why I think Push works for me is that screens just absorb too much of my attention. Push does imply/dictate (you choose) a certain workflow which helps me as I'm a world class procrastinator. I find getting ideas down with Push are easier and I can work for longer than with a mouse and screen, which in turn makes it more rewarding and fun. I use the step-sequencing of drums and synth parts, and using it over the mouse feels more "real" to me. Unfortunately all this is completely subjective. It's worth mentioning that firstly I'm a hobbyist who's real work is in front of a computer (which may part explain the drain on inspiration with a screen and mouse), and I'm into loop based dance music which the Ableton vids only seem to explore.
However the real win is the combo of Live / Push. Having Live available on screen with mouse control even during the idea / creation process is still a must. For me I feel it's the best of both worlds, but can completely understand that Push may not suit a happy Live user or that the combo is the worst of both worlds for someone else.
I'm a Push 1 owner, who bought it in the recent sale, and for the most part am a "believer" in the positive effect. But I can appreciate the other side of the argument, and I think a point a lot of people miss is that a well designed hardware interface and a well designed software interface have more in common with each other than the physical differences (in my view at least). In other words badly designed h/w and s/w, or even design that just doesn't suit an individual, are the workflow / inspiration killers.
A big part of why I think Push works for me is that screens just absorb too much of my attention. Push does imply/dictate (you choose) a certain workflow which helps me as I'm a world class procrastinator. I find getting ideas down with Push are easier and I can work for longer than with a mouse and screen, which in turn makes it more rewarding and fun. I use the step-sequencing of drums and synth parts, and using it over the mouse feels more "real" to me. Unfortunately all this is completely subjective. It's worth mentioning that firstly I'm a hobbyist who's real work is in front of a computer (which may part explain the drain on inspiration with a screen and mouse), and I'm into loop based dance music which the Ableton vids only seem to explore.
However the real win is the combo of Live / Push. Having Live available on screen with mouse control even during the idea / creation process is still a must. For me I feel it's the best of both worlds, but can completely understand that Push may not suit a happy Live user or that the combo is the worst of both worlds for someone else.
-
- KVRian
- 1374 posts since 30 Mar, 2011
Problem for me: I'm a lot faster with screen/mouse/keyboard, and as I have a daytime job I try to save as much time as possible when producing.
I also rely heavily on VSTs and don't use Drum Racks/Live synths that often, so I cannot really benefit from the Push browser.
I also rely heavily on VSTs and don't use Drum Racks/Live synths that often, so I cannot really benefit from the Push browser.
-
- KVRAF
- 11296 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC
Have you tried Push 2? Because I also rely heavily on plugins (AU) and the new option (added to both Push 1 and Push2) sped things up for me.2ZrgE wrote:Problem for me: I'm a lot faster with screen/mouse/keyboard, and as I have a daytime job I try to save as much time as possible when producing.
I also rely heavily on VSTs and don't use Drum Racks/Live synths that often, so I cannot really benefit from the Push browser.
Also for drum plugins I use Drum Racks as a wrapper, with midi in set to all notes in the I/O of the drum rack. This allows you to use the sequencer of Push 2 with any drum plugins (Geist, BFD, Addictive Drums, Battery, etc... ).
And... with many of the plugins reporting their parameters, I can control most of what I need via the Push 2 controller. You can configure (set as default) the order of the parameters so your most used 8 will be available immediately and then page through as you go (but sadly you cannot name pages).
Anyway I'm only posting because I got Push 1 to speed up my workflow.
-
- KVRian
- 1374 posts since 30 Mar, 2011
Well, on the other hand music making is not always about productivity. I 'waste' hours and hours playing piano, and I never record the stuff I play nor is so else listening to it (most of the time), still it's a lot of fun.
Push is fun when you know what you are doing, but it takes some time to learn it (like a 'real' instrument). I guess when there's an attractive sale I'll buy Push 2 as well.
Push is fun when you know what you are doing, but it takes some time to learn it (like a 'real' instrument). I guess when there's an attractive sale I'll buy Push 2 as well.