This explains a lot about Cakewalk/Sonar

[Jace-BeOS]

Still the greatest thread eva!

That thread will survive the nuclear holocaust.

This made me laugh, because I've been playing Fallout Shelter

(I know, nuclear holocausts are hilarious)

[Jace-BeOS]

From Cakewalk's CTO, of all people, in the aforementioned Sonar forum thread:

"TBH I seriously doubt that some of the people who obsess about bug fixes actually make any music themselves Music is the whole point of buying and using this software, not keeping track of bugs.
Write some songs or talk about how you are making music with SONAR instead, which is the primary objective of this forum. It will be way more valuable to others than obsessing about the software. "

Wow. That reminds me of the politicians who publicly get indignant about fact-checkers.

[Robert Randolph]

From Cakewalk's CTO, of all people, in the aforementioned Sonar forum thread:

"TBH I seriously doubt that some of the people who obsess about bug fixes actually make any music themselves Music is the whole point of buying and using this software, not keeping track of bugs.
Write some songs or talk about how you are making music with SONAR instead, which is the primary objective of this forum. It will be way more valuable to others than obsessing about the software. "

A gift to the haters, truly worth 1000 rants. And not so encouraging to those of us on the fence, that this richly-spec'd but rather buggy software will improve.

From now on, people should just preface their bug reports with, "So I was trying to make some music, but I was unable to because..."

[LawrenceF]

I'd also say the English word "obsess" has high relevance in that sentence, that if a person is not "obsessing" over a bug, just asking and bumping and getting the work done despite it, it doesn't apply to them.

Not defending the potentially bad PR, more just reading exactly what he wrote and assuming he chose those specific words for a good reason.

[lingyai]

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own or use Sonar and never have. However, it's very clear to me, reading that comment, that some people have real issues understanding plain English and will take offense at almost anything.

That quote is quite literally true, for almost if not all daw products. That "some" (look that word up in Webster's) people who go on these crusades about things (bugs, features) aren't making music, or much. In fact, "some" of them actually quite literally don't and have never even legally owned some of the products they crusade against.

Just because that's quite literally true for "some" doesn't mean he meant "everybody making bug reports", or eveyone complaining about a bug.

He's right. Of the people complaining most on any daw forum, some of them are complaining just to complain and aren't doing anything of consequence musically if at all while shouting how critical everything is.

The real problem is that it's often enough hard to know which ones those actually are. But yeah, still not good PR to say thise things out loud.

Hi Lawrence. Thanks for the tips on how to read and especially on the meaning of "some"

Seriously though, as you don't use Sonar or presumably visit the forum, what you might be missing here is the context of the CTO's post. You're a man who likes to be on the informed side of things; so why not read the thread itself first. Then read many of the other threads there over the last year, as I have, as a non-partisan who happens to be giving Sonar a try. You will see the same CTO dismiss complaints about bugs with "you're anti-software-evolution" jabs, while Anderton flat out loses it every several weeks, it seems.

And it is specifically the bugginess topic which seems to set them off. Their business model is to keep adding features, while letting the list of known bugs, some of them years old, languish / grow. If you post on the forum and keep it narrow and technical, a lot of folks will help. If however, you openly question the business model, some CW guys themselves will push back hard, somewhat reminiscent of how alcoholics deny they have a problem.

Finally, bear in mind that the thread in question, entitled, "As we near one year of a subscription model, what say you? Are we better or worse off?" is pretty much the place where folks would expect to be able to freely discuss the subscription model.

Even if none of the above sways you -- I do think that publicly biting off the heads of customers with legitimate critiques is way uncool, and probably not good for business. YMMV...

[lingyai]

From Cakewalk's CTO, of all people, in the aforementioned Sonar forum thread:

"TBH I seriously doubt that some of the people who obsess about bug fixes actually make any music themselves Music is the whole point of buying and using this software, not keeping track of bugs.
Write some songs or talk about how you are making music with SONAR instead, which is the primary objective of this forum. It will be way more valuable to others than obsessing about the software. "

Wow. That reminds me of the politicians who publicly get indignant about fact-checkers.

Pretty much nails it.

[EnGee]

From Cakewalk's CTO, of all people, in the aforementioned Sonar forum thread:

"TBH I seriously doubt that some of the people who obsess about bug fixes actually make any music themselves Music is the whole point of buying and using this software, not keeping track of bugs.
Write some songs or talk about how you are making music with SONAR instead, which is the primary objective of this forum. It will be way more valuable to others than obsessing about the software. "

A gift to the haters, truly worth 1000 rants. And not so encouraging to those of us on the fence, that this richly-spec'd but rather buggy software will improve.

From now on, people should just preface their bug reports with, "So I was trying to make some music, but I was unable to because..."

and highlight it further

Well, in spite of the humour, this is a true statement. I don't know about others, but for me I hate a chain of workarounds when I want to do something fast or to consulate the manual every few steps. The only DAWs that made me feel good and keep going "making some music" are Cubase, Live and now Studio One (the best for me).

If Studio One would go the same steps as Sonar (subscriptions, bugs/new features policy ..etc) I will change to Ableton Live (or Reaper, Bitwig or even FL Studio that has completely different workflow). I already deserted Sonar for Studio One and I couldn't be happier.

S1 has two things from three that I really wished to be there and I was surprised that they have been implemented nicely (Midi effects and curved envelopes, although the last one needs some enhancements). Now, for Sonar I was waiting for ages they 'finish' the Matrix and Step Sequencer, but nothing. Oh and the Staff writing that made me almost vomit! In addition to the Piano Roll functions and bugs. And even now after one year from abandoning it, there is still no any progress in what I wanted. Phew! So glad I could sell my account. I always feel sorry for letting some software go, but in Cakewalk's situation, I still feel so good

IMO, Sonar is for people who has exactly the same workflow/needs as Graig Anderton. So if you don't make music the same way, then you are not making music

[trimph1]

Well I do think that a professional should be professional in manner but here I see him getting defensive. I can see the point of view and I understand that. But, I know, I had to go but here, if people are not happy about the program then maybe one needs to hear that.

Sorry that people will complain about it.


This was the way it was handled before. Ignore the point that we have been trying to use the program but could not.

Blame the computer, blame the OS, blame the user...but when we see that the problem still exists...and you see a CTO say what he says there?

Sorry... that is when I would ditch the program and look elsewhere.

Others will fight on.

[LawrenceF]

Hey lingyai, thanks. I did read the entire thread that the guy linked to get the context.

I wasn't trying to choose sides by my comments, only saying that sometimes manufacturers have opinions also and in a free exchange, that stuff happens. I wouldn't take it so personally, but (given the net) it's sometimes bad PR, saying what you really think.

I've seen you post in various forums and I've never seen you "obsess" over anything, on the contrary, you seem polite and reasonable to me. I doubt if he was even talking about people like you, or you.

You can hear some frustration in that comment of his. He vented a little. It happens.

Happens a lot more from the FLStudio devs.

But yeah, that (what he said) is what might be called a brain fart. We already surely know lots of developers may sometimes feel that way, they just never say it in public, for obvious reasons. If we could be flies on the wall we'd probably hear a lot worse than that.

[trimph1]

From Cakewalk's CTO, of all people, in the aforementioned Sonar forum thread:

"TBH I seriously doubt that some of the people who obsess about bug fixes actually make any music themselves Music is the whole point of buying and using this software, not keeping track of bugs.
Write some songs or talk about how you are making music with SONAR instead, which is the primary objective of this forum. It will be way more valuable to others than obsessing about the software. "

A gift to the haters, truly worth 1000 rants. And not so encouraging to those of us on the fence, that this richly-spec'd but rather buggy software will improve.

From now on, people should just preface their bug reports with, "So I was trying to make some music, but I was unable to because..."

Some did just that...one example was Bub. He got banned as well because he kept coming up with the complaints.

Maybe the best approach would be to leave the product and find something that does work.

Or....turn Cakewalk's forum into another PUF.

[Jace-BeOS]

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own or use Sonar and never have. However, it's very clear to me, reading that comment, that some people have real issues understanding plain English and will take offense at almost anything.

That quote is quite literally true, for almost if not all daw products. That "some" (look that word up in Webster's) people who go on these crusades about things (bugs, features) aren't making music, or much. In fact, "some" of them actually quite literally don't and have never even legally owned some of the products they crusade against.

Just because that's quite literally true for "some" doesn't mean he meant "everybody making bug reports", or eveyone complaining about a bug.

He's right. Of the people complaining most on any daw forum, some of them are complaining just to complain and aren't doing anything of consequence musically if at all while shouting how critical everything is.

The real problem is that it's often enough hard to know which ones those actually are. But yeah, still not good PR to say thise things out loud.

My post below is hours late. Thought I hit submit. Hadn't.

I disagree with that presumption. Bugs really seriously kill my creativity mojo. Software has made me hate making stuff, or greatly procrastinate when planning to be productive. Since I'm one of the paying customers that suffers a lot of "it's just you" problems, it makes me feel persecuted by the software, and then even more so by fellow users who do the finger pointing and dismissing of my legitimate complaints. That right there explains my intensity on this thread.

I've been considerably, and consistently, more productive (as in Making More Music) in Logic on my Mac than ever I was in Sonar on Windows. A reasonable craftsman changes tools when they're not working out. It took me too long and too much money, but I make more music having freed myself from the tool that was making me miserable. Didn't completely wipe the chip from my shoulder, but I'm not crusading to ruin Cakewalk

[LawrenceF]

I shouldn't have stuck my beak in.

What I obviously badly failed to convey is that even if nobody directly involved here now on KVR is "that person" he meant, somebody involved there on the forum actually is, always, ever forum has that, so it's still true to some degree. And again, saying it out loud was a PR mistake, but that doesn't make it false.

Don't you guys ever sometimes "think" those kinds of things that you never say to them about some of your customers (or friends or aquaintences)? Of course you do, we all do, we're human, we just don't say them to anyone but trusted co-workers.

We can (if it matters at the time) take those kinds of things on a case by case basis and debate the validity of those random thoughts, try to determine who's "right or wrong" for a given circumstance, but we all do it, and we always at least always start out thinking we're right.

Anyway, butting out. No offense intended.

[lingyai]

Lawrence -- by me it's all good, dude.

No, I never thought he was speaking about me per se, so it wasn't personal; but the CTO was responding to someone who -- granted, can be a trying character, Doktor Avalanche -- was imho fundamentally right about something very important. At all events, the CTO chose his words, and the bad PR issue aside, well, I'm troubled by the insight into what he thinks. Or actually grateful. It can give me something to weigh up with the rest of the issues whether I resubscribe in 6 months time.

I really want to love Sonar. A *lot* of quality thought has gone into it, and for certain tasks, is a dream in use which has fundamentally changed how I work. Its list of features is dizzingly awesome. But its list of stably working features is shorter, leaving you (or me, on my setup, anyway) fickle behaviour in what should be bread and butter areas like automation, routing and midi editing.

I've worked with a few DAWs, know that none are perfect and that capability = complexity, but must say that getting/staying up to speed with Sonar is much more like grad school than any other host I've gotten to know. Actually grad school where you know that a flakey professor sometimes says the opposite of what he means, and you just kind of figure out when its happening and roll with it. Sort of kind of fairly often. It just doles out an uncommon amount of "WTF" and "not again, please, not now" moments in my case.

If it was just a matter of learning the quirks and limitations, assuming they aren't so bad (so far they aren't, though sometimes I waver...where's that kitchen knife? Snap out of it Jim!) I'd be glad to settle in, and invest even more time learning it. But new monthly features bring new monthly bugs, so the thing's in constant flux, and I just can't be bothered to keep amending my workarounds list. (Especially when workarounds take time to devise or even discover the need for.)

I don't care what whizz-bang features they roll out next. Damnit, if I can't make good music with the existing features, I'll never be able to. What I need is a highly stabilised version to tempt me to move off the July edition of Sonar I'm on now. That's my dog in this.

[Orbit-50]

I have no dog in this fight. I don't own or use Sonar and never have. However, it's very clear to me, reading that comment, that some people have real issues understanding plain English and will take offense at almost anything.
That quote is quite literally true, for almost if not all daw products. That "some" (look that word up in Webster's) people who go on these crusades about things (bugs, features) aren't making music, or much. In fact, "some" of them actually quite literally don't and have never even legally owned some of the products they crusade against.
Just because that's quite literally true for "some" doesn't mean he meant "everybody making bug reports", or eveyone complaining about a bug.
He's right. Of the people complaining most on any daw forum, some of them are complaining just to complain and aren't doing anything of consequence musically if at all while shouting how critical everything is.
The real problem is that it's often enough hard to know which ones those actually are. But yeah, still not good PR to say thise things out loud.

Not singling anyone out in particular, but I have to say that you are 100% correct LawrenceF. I've noticed this for years. You see, people who actually use the software for what it was intended for, most likely will try to get some help on a forum, or through technical support and will find a workaround for whatever issue they have so as not to lose productivity by taking the time to constantly gripe about it on a public forum, or they will just use a different DAW for whatever feature that DAW X was missing because the laws of averages state that DAW X developer is probably not going to implement "feature X" immediately because you say they should, so it's pretty much a waste of time beating a dead horse in this respect. I have learned over time that you just have to wait and see if the developer actually gets to whatever bug or request in a timely fashion or not. Just deal with it. There are a lot of people who don't get it. So, my final summation is that these people just have nothing better to do than to crusade about whatever the crusade of the day is in their mind, whether they use the software or not is irrelevant to them. They probably feel as if though they have found a flaw, and will save the world by shouting off the rooftops about it. I can guarantee that when the feature is implemented, the crusader wont even use it because he never needed it in the first place. It will never end.

[trimph1]

Maybe they should just ban the complainers outright