KVR Audio

Kinh · Post by **Kinh** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:17 am

Especially for master and vocals.
Demoing Waves Kramer Master tape at the moment. Applied it to an edm track and it made it fatter and louder, dont know if it really emulated a tape though (wet, bouncy punch sound that tapes have), difficult to say really.

I remember trying the Reel Tape from Avid and that was about the closest thing Ive come upon, even had tape noise - pretty loud too, the Kramer noise is barely audible, the only thing is when you click 'buy' for the Avid one it takes you to a blank screen. Maybe discontinued??

Anyway..are there better ones out there that the Kramer one?
Their 'sale' ends today sometime so thats why Im askin'.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:19 am

IMHO, u-he Satin.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:33 am

[DELETED]

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:50 am

TheoM wrote:Just be aware that if you do parallel processing you *can't* put satin in the parallel chain (basically no where where you have 2 identical tracks in parallel), because it will cause phase problems.

You can't mix a dry signal with a signal recorded on an analogue tape machine in parallel without phaseing. It's a property of tape to be "not zero phase". It's the laws of physics.

You *can* put kramer and VTM on parallel chains

Please file a bug report with Waves, they evidently got their tape model wrong then. If it doesn't phase, it simply ain't tape.

Oh yes, indeed, I'm biased here. But I'm not the aggressor, I'm the victim. I just point out false advertisement for the very reason that our evidently more accurate model is perceived as somewhat inferior to an algorithm that says "tape" but only has "whatever" in it.

That said, I'm sure it's a great effect and it may be very useful for many people. But it simply isn't what it says.

Kinh · Post by **Kinh** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:02 am

TheoM wrote:for EDM Kinh, probably Satin.

Why do you say better for EDM especially? Because it smooths harshness better?
Also, does it have that 'real' tape sound with hiss noise?

Kinh · Post by **Kinh** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:19 am

Urs wrote: Oh yes, indeed, I'm biased here. But I'm not the aggressor, I'm the victim. I just point out false advertisement for the very reason that our evidently more accurate model is perceived as somewhat inferior to an algorithm that says "tape" but only has "whatever" in it.

That said, I'm sure it's a great effect and it may be very useful for many people. But it simply isn't what it says.

I kinda know what you mean. It somehow doesn't quite sound like tape. I cant put my finger on why or how. You know with tape you get that dampness, that elasticity like everything's bouncing back at you as opposed to coming directly. Hard to put into words but its like a train riding on old wooden sleepers instead of concrete.

sascha · Post by **sascha** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:53 am

Just in case if anyone's interested in the old discussion about bias, THD and freq response:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2#p5527632 (and the following page, very 'fruitful' but, alas, unresponded by Waves)

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5530015 ('u-he's tape-plugin test file suite (used during Satin dev, originally)')

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:03 am

Slate VTM is the best for native versions (not including the UAD)

The Kramer Master Tape is not bad but VTM remembers me more to a real tape.

sergiofrias · Post by **sergiofrias** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:47 am

sascha wrote:Just in case if anyone's interested in the old discussion about bias, THD and freq response:

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 7632</span> (and the following page, very 'fruitful' but, alas, unresponded by Waves)

<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0015</span> ('u-he's tape-plugin test file suite (used during Satin dev, originally)')

Ahh ,i remember that post

your test tones are very useful,i still use them from time to time.
one of the thing's i found very tedious was to find the compression transfer curve at various frequencies,i would have to measure a sine wave input against the output at different db levels,than i would write those numbers on excel that process took a long time lol.

talking about tape,and what i look for in a tape simulation:

The frequency response must be level dependent;
incresiasing the bias must reduce the harmonic distortion but also reduces the high frequency;
lower frequencies have more harmonic distortion (amplitude) third/odd harmonic distortion due to transformers;
head bump/frequency response higher at 30 ips lower at 15 ips;
wow and flutter must be present,also generates sidebands;
tape hiss and asperity noise;
frequency dependent phase;
frequency dependent compression;
crosstalk;
tape formula , tape aging;
erasure of transients (level dependent);
Pre-emphasis;
Record / reproduction equalization;

hiss is one of the first things our brain tries to find in a analog recording since we all remember the sound of vintage records,i believe that the final link that we don't see today is a study of the effects of tape aging ,i would love to find a recording of white noise and sine wave over 40/50 years ago to see the effects on the frequency and harmonic distortion.

V0RT3X · Post by **V0RT3X** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:31 pm

Satin gets my vote.

However for EDM, you would be much better off buying something like Fabfilter Saturn instead. It gives you way more flavors and the multi-band design will do wonders for your war to be the loudest.

transmetropolitan · Post by **transmetropolitan** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:49 pm

EvilDragon wrote:IMHO, u-he Satin.

+1

Satin rocks.

4damind · Post by **4damind** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:06 pm

Satin is for me more a tape saturation toolbox it can be used to simulate different tapes/machines but it's not the same as a dedicated emulation of X or Y like VTM.
I use VTM to 95% in all my productions, Satin more as tape delay.

In some blind tests on Gearslutz most people prefer VTM and finding it sounds more 3D. Satin sounds for some users flat and some others thinking it was the original.
ReelBus is another tape plugin which people like a lot (behind VTM), so I would give it a try. It's not expensive (20€) http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/

ImNotDedYet · Post by **ImNotDedYet** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:17 pm

VTM blows Kramer away to my ears. Not that I know what it should sound like, but I much prefer VTM's sound to Kramer's when I want some subtle enhancements.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:20 pm

I personally like Virsyn's VTAPE the best. Sounds great and when you really push it I think it tends to still sound really natural and "tape like." Other tape emulations tend to kind of fail at extremes, IMO.

masterhiggins · Post by **masterhiggins** » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:24 pm

Yes, I'd say VTM sounds more like what I heard when I used to use analog tape in school. The saturation is really convincing. Sad to say that. I really want Satin to be better then VTM realistic-wise as I dislike slate's BS marketing.

Best tape emulator?