How do I use MSB & LSB ? any examples!?!

[noobAudioJunky]

Hi all,

I've been studying my evo guide, along with Native Instruments B4 organ. I've managed to assign some custom CC's, by cross referencing the B4 preset in the Enigma tool with the MIDI setup section of the B4.

Every time I (re)read, I pick up something new... like, Program, MSB & LSB are all dual-function, ie tap once or double-tap - I'm guessing, for example, that when I tap the Program button once (the only way I've ever used the Program button), it's actually sending CC 145, with some (bank) LSB & MSB info... ie, that that's a shortcut to the common, long-hand Program Change operation




One thing I'm still not sure about is how to Bank Select.

An excerpt from the manual

Sending Program, Bank LSB and Bank MSB data is made simple using the Mk-425C/449C/461C. Simply press the PROGRAM, DATA LSB or DATA MSB
button and enter the program or bank change you wish to send.

Do all the entries that mention MSB and LSB require both parameters?

For the 'setting values' scenario, where you're toggling a value, it makes sense

Setting Toggle Values For The Buttons
The 10 assignable buttons can each be assigned to toggle between two values. You may for instance want to send out value 15 when you first
press the button followed value 74 when you press the button for a second time. This is how you do it:
1. Press the Function button labelled “DATA MSB” 2 times.
2. Type in 15 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
3. Press the Function button labelled “DATA LSB” 2 times.
4. Type in 74 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
If you want the button to send the same value every time you press it, simply type in the same value both times.

Any nice simple software (like B4) that will tell me if i'm sending one of the coarse / fine prn/rprn messages?

Feeling super stupid

Can anyone explain , or point to a guide, that shows how to do, for example, the programming of the master volume, using the MSB and LSB, ideally on an evo mk461c?

Maybe even that's a bad example, as the * indicates it's a sysex message?

[pljones]

You're confusing several different ideas here.

The first is how to program your keyboard.

The second is MIDI events.

The third is how a consumer of MIDI events chooses to respond.


The chart you show relates to programming your keyboard. The "assign" number must be read with is description. Numbers above 127 are explicitly not directly related to a number in the standard MIDI numbering scheme -- they can't be, as MIDI only has seven bits to store numbers, so the range for each number is 0 to 127 (see the comment for 255 -- they've even had to put in a workaround for entering a leading "2").

For example, number 146 is MIDI CC on/off. This programs the behaviour of your keyboard when pressing a button to send alternately one of two MIDI CC values. The use of "Program", "Bank LSB" and "Data MSB" here is meaningless, really -- that's just how your keyboard labels where it stores the numbers it's going to send: they're not sent as program change, bank LSB and bank MSB, they're send as two different values (stored in Bank LSB and Data MSB) for a MIDI CC number (stored in program). So that idea gets extended to all the other (post-127) entries. The headings "Program", "Bank LSB" and "Data MSB" could just be "value 1", "value 2", "value 3", except they relate to the labels on your keyboard, I suppose.

You'd have to read the other pages mentioned to understand how the three values are used to construct the messages being sent by the keyboard.

You then need to read the manual of whatever you're sending the message to -- taking care, particularly if you're using a VST, to understand all points in the event pathway -- to see how it reacts to MIDI events.

[noobAudioJunky]

thank you so much! I didn't even deduce that the *** was referring to the Controller Off event.

does that also mean, re the fader & controllers, that 0-119, 120-127, 128-131 can't be programmed, and the MIDI buttons (numeric keypad) must be used?



Ok, I think I can work this out now, thanks to your pointers, with the examples in the guide (bottom of post)...

One other thing that I'm still head-scratching over is this Edit Mode:

Edit Mode describes the short period after a function button has been pressed during which the parameters of that function can be altered. The
numeric keypad can be used to alter a parameter during this time. No data is sent out of the Evolution MK-425C/449C/461C when it is in Edit
mode except for program and bank changes. LCD symbols shown in Edit mode will flash to show you that a particular parameter can be edited. If
a number is part entered, and a new controller turned, that number will become the relevant parameter number for the new controller and the 3
second editing period will re-trigger.

Is this 'editing a parameter' talking about sending a specific value for a CC?

Before you can assign a MIDI cc to one of the MK-425C/449C/461C’s controllers, you will need to select it for editing. There are 2 methods for doing
this:
1. Press CONTROL SELECT. The LCD will display the CONTROLLER symbol.
The symbol will be flashing to indicate the controller settings can be altered. The 3-digit display will show the number of the currently
selected controller, proceeded by a ‘C’, or an ‘F’ if the controller is a fader.
2. Type in the number of the controller using the numeric keypad, or the +/- buttons.
or
Move a fader/rotary controller.
Simply moving a fader/rotary controller will make it the currently selected controller, ready for editing.
It is not possible to select any of the 10 numerical buttons by pressing them, since during edit mode, they are used to enter numerical values. To
program these buttons, please use the first method. We have given the buttons 0 to 9 the following numbers for the selection process: MK-425C =
11-20, MK-449C = 20-29, MK-461C = 24-33 respectively.

I'm going to try and program some of these now, hopefully the other examples ('implementation', ie button-presses) are accurate and descriptive enough for me to

Selecting a controller for editing

Before you can assign a MIDI cc to one of the MK-425C/449C/461C’s controllers, you will need to select it for editing. There are 2 methods for doing
this:
1. Press CONTROL SELECT. The LCD will display the CONTROLLER symbol.
The symbol will be flashing to indicate the controller settings can be altered. The 3-digit display will show the number of the currently
selected controller, proceeded by a ‘C’, or an ‘F’ if the controller is a fader.
2. Type in the number of the controller using the numeric keypad, or the +/- buttons.
or
Move a fader/rotary controller.
Simply moving a fader/rotary controller will make it the currently selected controller, ready for editing.
It is not possible to select any of the 10 numerical buttons by pressing them, since during edit mode, they are used to enter numerical values. To
program these buttons, please use the first method. We have given the buttons 0 to 9 the following numbers for the selection process: MK-425C =
11-20, MK-449C = 20-29, MK-461C = 24-33 respectively.

Assigning Midi CCs

Once the controller you want to edit has been selected, you can change the assigned MIDI cc number in the following way:
1. Press “CONTROL ASSIGN”. The LCD will flash the CC symbol.
The 3 digit display will indicate the currently assigned MIDI cc number.
2. Type in a new MIDI cc value using the numeric keypad or ‘+’ and ‘-’ buttons.
The MIDI controller number you select will be assigned to the currently selected controller, shown by the number on the small, 2-digit
display.

Setting Toggle Values For The Buttons

The 10 assignable buttons can each be assigned to toggle between two values. You may for instance want to send out value 15 when you first
press the button followed value 74 when you press the button for a second time. This is how you do it:
1. Press the Function button labelled “DATA MSB” 2 times.
2. Type in 15 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
3. Press the Function button labelled “DATA LSB” 2 times.
4. Type in 74 using the numerical keypad or the +/- keys.
If you want the button to send the same value every time you press it, simply type in the same value both times.

[pljones]

Is this 'editing a parameter' talking about sending a specific value for a CC?

No, it's talking about configuring your keyboard's buttons in general. The guide is for setting up your keyboard only.

As far as I can make it out, you can set four values for each button: the value under Assign, and the Program, Bank LSB and Data MSB values. They're really just four numbers stored in your keyboard -- ignore the "MIDI" names to the columns.

When you pick a number from 0 to 127 under Assign for the button, your keyboard is designed to send the MIDI CC number with the same number from the Assign column. (I don't understand what the "Toggle Value 2" / "Toggle Value 1" bits mean -- i.e. without knowing how your keyboard responds to pressing the button.)

However, for all the other numbers, the keyboard does not send that number at all -- it can't, as MIDI numbers are restricted to the range 0 to 127. Instead, those Assign numbers assign special functions, with the Program, Bank LSB and Data MSB values providing up to three other values in the range 0 to 127.

As another example, RPN numbers run from (0, 0) to (127, 127) with only five actually being registered. Your keyboard lets you send the RPN event to address any of these, using RPN course and RPN fine and then you'd follow with CC6 (Data Entry MSB) to set the course parameter value and CC38 (Data Entry LSB) to set the fine parameter value -- using four buttons.

So, whilst flexible, the RPN assigns use up buttons like mad and your keyboard provides shorthands for three. The "Pitch Bend Sensitivity" knows that to set pitch bend sensitivity on MIDI consumers that understand this method, you send RPN 101 value 0, RPN 100 value 0 (to select Pitch Bend Sensitivity registered parameter) then the sensitivity value (here only sending the course value with CC 6).

[noobAudioJunky]

Ah ya kinda lost me at the end there, but I've had a penny drop moment, so THANK YOU!


the toggle value bit i kinda get from the example (in the earlier post with the toggle quote) - 15 + 74 are (programmed using) the lsb & msb buttons (double-tap to program the value sent when the key is pressed), thus sending the toggle 1 / toggle 2 values...



I guess what the value affects depends on what command is assigned to that button, ie for the 147 (note-on) program = note, and the values ('LSB'/'MSB') is the velocity on/off



One thing (the very first thing!) I still haven't grasped is Bank Select. CC 00, according to my manual's index,

To program the values required for these advanced messages, the MK-425C/449C/461C requires you to press the PROGRAM, DATA LSB and DATA
MSB buttons twice respectively. Pressing only once will send the program and bank change instructions “on the fly” as described in the Getting
Started guide.

Do bank changes normally (or always) have 2 values, bank # and Program # ? (I'm guessing)

EDIT: I think it might mean, in this instance, pressing msb or lsb once let you enter a number. that is the bank select value.

Time to try and get kore's bank select working?!!