Do you have to play an instrument?

[CypherOne]

Squarpusher - messy noise.

never, it's all very rational and thought

I thought that might put the pigeon amongst the cats. I haven't really heard that much Squarepusher, but he is among a very small group of artists who have forced me to take the CD back and get a refund - I really don't do that very often.

Maybe it is all thought out and rational, just didn't do it for me, it all sounded way to self indulgent.

But hey, different strokes for different types of paintbrush I guess. It would be really dull if we all liked the same things...

[Hink]

I think a musical ear is basically the opposite of tone deaf. As there are people who are tone deaf I think musical ear is a suitabe description for those who are not tone deaf. A musical ear does have levels and does improve in it's note recognition, key recognition and overall peerception of the music (harmonies, dissonance ect).

Who was it that wasnt tone deaf, but just deaf? Bach? Brahms? .. Bethoveen! Hmm.. i guess experience IS important

Sorry, its early here and im on new medication
Dont know what im talking about

well you exactly right except one minor detail, again I was defining my take on the term musical ear..if you're deaf you would have no ear. But to write complex music as is the case here one would have to have an extremely high knowledge of music to be deaf and write such incredible parts...it's not like he just put a lot of pretty dots on paper and it sounded good when played. One can certainly study music without playing an instrument...

[jens]

Whether one plays an instrument or can play it well isn't as important as whether one understands music theory. The more music theory you know, the wider your range and scope.

For example, you take someone who has no knowledge of music theory. He might be able to create some pretty interesting music, but that lack of understanding of scales, chords, harmony, rhythm, structure, melody..etc will become a handicap, because he will hit a glass ceiling eventually and cannot break through it until he learns music theory.

You taks someone at the opposite end of that spectrum--let's say, Sakamoto Ryuichi for example. This guy probably knows more music theory than most composers out there. He is well versed in just about every style of music, every time period, and every ethnic culture. He is a Godfather of electronic music (back in the 70's with Yellow Magic Orchestra). He's made industrial, synth pop, techno--and he can turn around and compose full orchestral film scores, opera, full piano solo album, avant garde orchestral..etc. Then for his personal works, he's heavily into jazz, ambient, techno, house, traditonal ethnic, 19th century french impressionism, bossa nova, reggae..etc, and he even spins as a DJ sometimes. With his experimental/avant garde works, he breaks down all the rules/restrictions he's learned as a trained composer, and basically can revert back to the primal state of someone who is composing without music theory. Granted, it is highly unusual for a highly trained composer to be able to put aside his training to do something totally experimental, but Sakamoto is one of the few that can do it--and that's why he is one of the most respected musician of our time.

So, if we were to compare a musician without music theory knowledge, and a musician with immense music theory knowledge--well, you draw your own conclusions.

Personally, I'm in awe of highly talented musicians with strong theory knowledge. I think musicians without theory knowledge make some interesting stuff, but hardly comparable to the masterworks of someone like Sakamoto.

bloated nonsense. (I could explain, but...)




- o.k. - I'll do:

Most of my life as a musician I tried to stay as far away from theory as possible.
The range of music I am playing/composing/producing is verrry verrry broad. (jazz, funk, punk, metel, pop, etc.) Sometimes I play a lick on the guitar which I think is worth keeping and try to record it. As soon as the sequencer's metronome is running I have troubles playing it. Then I find out it's 11/16 or 7/8 or whatever - I didn't notice it because no theory was disturbing me in the creative process.
Likewise I sometimes have complicated key-shifts in my compositions which I play because they sound good - on the other hand I know a lot of people who have a deep knowledge of musical theory and aren't even able to improvise over a simple 4chord pattern. Theytend to be envious about my ability to always being able to play something to everything.

Mind you: theory always is invented to explain complex things to people who can't understand otherwise what is going on. Theory tries to explain a part of reality with rules. Therefor theory is nothing else than a combination of rules.

Above quote of yours is the same arrogant nonsense as telling that a person isn't able to speak/write grammatically correct without having a complete grammatical knowledge.

I don't give a shit about rules. Rules are for the insensitive who need it for orientation because they are lacking the ability to find their course on their own.


The 'ten commandments' haven't been invented for the good people - they have been formulated for the bad ones.



Sigh...

[Emerald Tablet]

I was thinking about this... Can you really make decent music without being an instrumentalist? If you make music, isn't a fundamental aspect to have practical and theoretical knowledge?

With someone like Squarepusher it is really obvious that he plays instruments. There are loads of undergrounds acts though that just don't seem to even be able to make a melody. I think that I can tell with a producer whether they play drums or not, there just is a difference. I feel that's why people like Chemical Brothers, Fat Boy Slim, DJ Shadow, Dj Premier and Squarepusher are in another league as such, they understand drums and therefore make better beats than Roni Size, Goldie and others...

I dunno I just see if anyone is feeling me on this one? I'm not saying that people should be Miles Davis or Steve Gadd but some basic instrumental skills aren't that hard to aquire and to my mind are essential.

i believe its a blessing and a curse in one
for me personaly - electronic music isn`t there to imitate a band. its there to add something that wasn`t possible with for instance regular drums - so well - in my opinion roni zise makes better beats because you cant make em on regular drums.

i mean whats the f**king use of imitating a band if you can be in a band. the artists you mentioned (especially fat boy slim) are like mac donalds - instant food makers - its all served as obvious as one could think up.

by the way - my gf plays the clarinet - her little brother plays pc - i think we will hear much from this young fellow in the future ! she is able to play wonderfull - but like she said - able to play what other tell her to ! he however is a much more creative hyper mind and he will never be able to play an instrument because he lacks patience - he needs impulses - thousands of them . one instrument is simply to dull for the litle guy

[moldofunker]

I don't give a shit about rules. Rules are for the insensitive who need it for orientation because they are lacking the ability to find their course on their own.

O yeah, that's so fuckin' true and most of the musicians who aren't so original use the rules to make their music enjoyable. If this is good or bad, i don't know and i don't care.

I find the ability to play an instrument the only way you can go if you want to be trully original. You cannot improvise on the piano roll of the computer, you simply cannot put the feeling into notes by dragging the mouse (and not be influenced by anything during the process).

I want to learn to play keyboard but i just need to learn every note how it sounds and what are the 3-4key combinations (you know any site where i can find them?). Therefore i will use my way of playing with the keys and if it'll sound good is great, if not i'll go for some theory .

[pHz]

I find the ability to play an instrument the only way you can go if you want to be trully original. You cannot improvise on the piano roll of the computer, you simply cannot put the feeling into notes by dragging the mouse.

hmmmnnn ...

... the new wave of 'sequencers' gives the lie to this statement IMHO ...

... stuff like live4 / energyXT / audiomulch (not that new i know) / bidule / etc make it ENTIRELY possible to improvise and create music with 'feel' without being able to play an instrument in any conventional way (ok - you DO need to be able to mentally map sounds to keys perhaps but no musical theory necessary) ...

... i think that more and more this is the way we are going - apps that DO allow you to truly use your PC as an instrument (with obviously some level of pre-preparation required) - i imagine that at some point in the next 5 years or so we will start ot see 'laptop virtuosos' emerging - kids who have never used anything but a computer for making music and who can play their machine live with as much fluidity and expression as someone who picked up a guitar at 12 and has been playing all their life ...

slainte rob

[moldofunker]

You didn't quoted smth important "without being influenced during the process". Of course you can but you lose the idea hearing a car passing by or your gf telling you the dinner is ready

I don't belive in the machines power to replace talent. Of course you can do enjoyable music using the patterns your PC has to offer but these are just rules and if you'll start learning by rules you'll never find the path to your rules.

[Robert Randolph]

I beleive it's been shown technology can replace talent.

Look how much faster aeroplanes are than even our fastest sprinters.

this applies to music completely. Computers make music 1000x better and more artistic.

[jens]

I want to learn to play keyboard but i just need to learn every note how it sounds and what are the 3-4key combinations (you know any site where i can find them?). Therefore i will use my way of playing with the keys and if it'll sound good is great, if not i'll go for some theory .

playing keyboard is far simpler than e.g. playing guitar because the note transpositions from low to high are completely linear.
((left to right) but you surely know this from the piano-roll.)


the notes are:

C (it's the white key below the two black ones which sit together)
- cis - D - dis - E - F - fis - G - gis - A - b-flat - B - C


A simple C-major chord is like this:

C (then go one up - two up - three up - four up (cis - D - dis - E)) E (then go another five up (F - fis - G - gis - A) A

A simple C-minor chord is like this:

C (then go one up - two up - three up (cis - - D - dis ))dis (then go another six up (E - F - fis - G - gis - A) A


With the same counting up you can build any simple minor/major chord.

Of course you can play the same notes lower instead of higher and it's still the same chord.


Have fun!

[Robert Randolph]

Guitar is linear as well.

in fact its much easier to become highly profficient at a specific style of guitar than a similiar style of piano... much more coordination and thinking involved with piano...

of course, the raw results (unprocessed, without any special manipulations) can be more impressive on piano likewise... as with anything that has more inherent flexibility theres always more to master.

But of course the beauty in guitar isnt playing only 6-7 notes at once... its flipping on the pedals annd bending, hammering, sliding, pulling off, tapping, popping or just throwing the damn thing across the room....

[jens]

Guitar is linear as well.

not at all!!! - the single strings are linear in themselves, but as soon as you're playing a chord and you have to use more than one string it isn't linear anymore...

[Robert Randolph]

Guitar is linear as well.

not at all!!! - the single strings are linear in themselves, but as soon as you're playing a chord and you have to use more than one string it isn't linear anymore...

Of course it is. please explain how it isnt.... maybe linear means something very very different here

[jens]

can't be arsed to discuss something that obvious...

[Robert Randolph]

can't be arsed to discuss something that obvious...

*gets ready to say it*


so I guess you just dont know then huh?




*waits for the bait to be accepted...*
hehehe

[jens]

o.k. you got me - I don't know