Ilok busted?

[trimph1]

I think a global key in that case would be a great solution to abandon ware. Even if there is a problem with the vst at least one could still keep it in.

This reminds me that a lot of developers have no real solution to the issue of succession.

BTW...which developer was it who went to watermark and got some people crabby?

[camsr]

Copy protection is an iterative process.

From what I understand of it, it's more similar to who can build the tallest pile of "whatever"
And I only say that because of all the extra effort that's required for both crackers and coders.

[masterhiggins]

BTW...which developer was it who went to watermark and got some people crabby?

Camel I think. They embedded all your info I to the display when it was instantiated. Dicks.

[trimph1]

Counterfeiting is almost the same thing.

The more anyone counterfeits the more complex the currency gets.

Or parts...et cetera

[camsr]

Counterfeiting is almost the same thing.

The more anyone counterfeits the more complex the currency gets.

Or parts...et cetera

Except these items are concepts of Imitation and Substitutes since they are tangible. Where with software, it's provided somehow to the crackers, then modified illegally and distributed illegally as well. It's not a substitute, it's a permutation of the same thing. And, for example, copying someone elses designs for a tangible object is completely legal, as long as the object is for private use only. Counterfeiting is illegal in all cases because that's the law as it pertains to money.

[Urs]

Copy protection is an iterative process.

From what I understand of it, it's more similar to who can build the tallest pile of "whatever"
And I only say that because of all the extra effort that's required for both crackers and coders.

The challenge is to put in as little effort as possible on our side for as much annoyance on their side. A noise generator is 3 lines of code. Displaying an invitation like "Click to upgrade to full version" is 5 lines of code. A check for a crack is 10-20 lines. A trigger for a check is 5-10 lines.

Our software has 10 or so checks, each took a few hours to implement. No group has ever found all checks, but some groups have exploited flaws for which we hadn't had checks. Each time that happens I spend a few hours and add two or three more checks for exactly that flaw.

The biggest vulnerability is serials bought with stolen credit cards. Happens about once a month for each product. Each time that happens we add an entry to our ever growing blacklist file. 1 minute of work. What happens when someone upgrades the product later on? - It will just work. For a while. Until it doesn't.

How do we know it works? - Most checks display a link to our website. They click, Google Analytics tracks. Many buy.

Minimum effort for maximum return from the warez scene.

Here's a secret no-one will ever officially tell anyone: The question might not be "can you afford to be cracked". The real question might be "can you afford not to". I don't know which is right, but I do know that we make good money from people who "tried" our stuff, until it cordially invited them to pay our shop a visit.

[aMUSEd]

BTW...which developer was it who went to watermark and got some people crabby?

Camel I think. They embedded all your info I to the display when it was instantiated. Dicks.

No that's not watermarking - many companies display at least some user info, some not even for a few seconds but have it on the plugin gui (although usually just the person's name). I'm thinking he meant Tone2 who use some sort of watermarking allegedly (not sure how it works).

[4damind]

The interesting thing is how the affected companies will handle this. Are they waiting for iLok3 or are they rethinking the complete copy protection model?
I expect that we will see Slate Digital, Eventide, Sonnox etc. floating around the web in the next days and this could have a big impact on the business model eg. with subscriptions.
So for me as a paying customer it's more interesting what the companies will do.

Btw. I only know about Tone2 using audio watermarking with their synth. But if have no idea if this is really a useful copy protection? It's more to identify the user (Afaik they using some kind of custom id coded in the audio phase).

[2ZrgE]

Copy protection is an iterative process.

From what I understand of it, it's more similar to who can build the tallest pile of "whatever"
And I only say that because of all the extra effort that's required for both crackers and coders.

The challenge is to put in as little effort as possible on our side for as much annoyance on their side. A noise generator is 3 lines of code. Displaying an invitation like "Click to upgrade to full version" is 5 lines of code. A check for a crack is 10-20 lines. A trigger for a check is 5-10 lines.

Our software has 10 or so checks, each took a few hours to implement. No group has ever found all checks, but some groups have exploited flaws for which we hadn't had checks. Each time that happens I spend a few hours and add two or three more checks for exactly that flaw.

The biggest vulnerability is serials bought with stolen credit cards. Happens about once a month for each product. Each time that happens we add an entry to our ever growing blacklist file. 1 minute of work. What happens when someone upgrades the product later on? - It will just work. For a while. Until it doesn't.
...

That's a 'fair' way of dealing with the problem, but obviously no solution for the 'big' companies like Sound Toys and such - they just don't tolerate any illegal use of their product. So if ST had serial protection and a serial gets leaked, many people could use the soft for free. They just don't update.

If I see rather fresh tutorials on Youtube made with the ancient Cubase 5 I almost instantly know what to think...

[2ZrgE]

...

Btw. I only know about Tone2 using audio watermarking with their synth. But if have no idea if this is really a useful copy protection? It's more to identify the user (Afaik they using some kind of custom id coded in the audio phase).

It scares the honest user: "Watch out, we know who shares our product!"

So if someone breaks into your computer/email account/cloud storage or steals your whole machine and then spreads the soft you are not looking good...

[bronxsound]

It scares the honest user: "Watch out, we know who shares our product!"

So if someone breaks into your computer/email account/cloud storage or steals your whole machine and then spreads the soft you are not looking good...

any protection these days is designed to protect the vendor. and user? who cares? he is just an idiot who pays the money.

[aMUSEd]

Copy protection is an iterative process.

From what I understand of it, it's more similar to who can build the tallest pile of "whatever"
And I only say that because of all the extra effort that's required for both crackers and coders.

It's just another form of arms race - like military or evolutionary arms races - one side develops a counter-measure that provides protection against the other, then the other finds a way to circumvent that forcing the other side to adapt further, and so on.

[Urs]

That's a 'fair' way of dealing with the problem, but obviously no solution for the 'big' companies like Sound Toys and such - they just don't tolerate any illegal use of their product. So if ST had serial protection and a serial gets leaked, many people could use the soft for free. They just don't update.

How big do you think Soundtoys are compared to a 'small' company like, say, u-he?

Thing is, there is no guarantee that any form of copy protection works. So no matter what size a company has, they need to deal with it. They can make their customers pay boutique prices for some security by adopting something that gets cracked seldom, such as iLok. But in a moment like this, this is all over and there is no concept for dealing with it.

We have a concept of dealing with piracy once it happens. People who use iLok don't.

[chk071]

How do we know it works? - Most checks display a link to our website. They click, Google Analytics tracks. Many buy.

I still fail to see how you can track that (probably because i don't know enough about these things). Are those links unique to the checks you built into the software? Does Google Analytics show you the IP adress, or any other "ID" of the person who clicked on the link in the warezed version? How do you know that it's exactly that person who buys then?

[2ZrgE]

I don't know how big they are, that's why I wrote 'big' - their marketing section tricks the potential customer into thinking that they are a high quality pro products company. I guess that's what marketing is for.

Maybe they use time bombing as well as a second antipiracy means, but I don't know as I have a legit Sound toys copy. But I'd really prefer if they would switch to a more user friendly protection scheme (won't happen I know, because many people identify iLok/eLicencer etc. with high quality products...)