StiX : MultiSynthesis Drum Machine (v1.6 Released + Flash sales)

[Lotuzia]

setting all the mixer levels to zero still produces sound. Mute/Solo works, but when a slider is set to zero, there is still a very faint noise.

Thanks for the report. Yes just like on my old Trident 32 inline mixdesk

More seriously, we'll see if something can be done, or is really worth to be done, because :

If you're using static view, the mute button is more handy. If you're using automation via midi Cc, the mute could also be prefered. Mute/Unmute channels is available via automation from version 0.96B. not fully tested ( currently testing all this) but it should work. Or at worse in next beta.

Well, if i want to automate a fade, it will be a problem. I'd say its a bug.

Agree. Could you please check if it's not the effects ( Reverb, delay) that you hear when a channel voulume slider is set to zero.( Just mute the effects or zero all send FX of the channel) (I'm on the road today and cant check until tomorrow ) Thanks in advance.

[AnX]

Yes, i did check those at the time. Its not the FX.

[marvotron]

Gave it a try but it's not for me.

My main feedback would be to work on the synthesis envelope section. Straight up ADSR just doesn't really fit drums IMO. If it was my choice the first thing I would add is adjustable envelope curvature, either through some preset shapes or a knob for the attack and release section.

Also the advanced sound design part of the UI is very cramped but the bottom section with the mixer and fx is very sparse.

[Lotuzia]

Yes, i did check those at the time. Its not the FX.

Thanks. This will be fixed asap

[Lotuzia]

Gave it a try but it's not for me.

My main feedback would be to work on the synthesis envelope section. Straight up ADSR just doesn't really fit drums IMO. If it was my choice the first thing I would add is adjustable envelope curvature, either through some preset shapes or a knob for the attack and release section.

Also the advanced sound design part of the UI is very cramped but the bottom section with the mixer and fx is very sparse.

Thanks for trying it.

Well, to answer you, the way StiX deals with Adsr is different than what can be usually found. ADSR works together with the per step GATE TIME of the sequencer. You can get a variety of shapes with this alone. I think more than with 3 segments EVs commonly found on drum machines.

LFOs with/without retrigger can act like additional/simultaneous envelopes. By combining them with the ADSR, you can get a lot of additional shapes as well. ( especially because LFOs can have cumulative waveforms)

There's a bit more though. Envelope segments can be adressed as modulation targets. If you modulate envelope segments with oscillators, LFOs, or other envelopes -self modulation- , or anything else, you can still get additional shapes. And by combining all the above you still get additional shapes. Also ADSR have time multipliers. So that add a lot as well. Actually, I think that will all these possible modulations, there are probably very few EV shapes that StiX can't produce.

And finally StiX has sample accurate timing. even for all the analog engines ( I'm not sure it's the case for all synthesis based drum machines) . Envelopes are very fast, and analog modelled. this adds a lot too.

But well, all that to tell that with StiX you can really have very fast/tight EV times, AND a wide variety of curves, that can be modulated in pretty much all ways, including by *by step* sequence parameters. So it's not too bad. That's also why, after having considered at the very beginning a curve parameter for the Decay time, wich is not a bad idea in se, but also all its consequences for the interactions with the different modules, we have finally decided to postpone this area of development. Admitedly, otoh all this works in a different way that EVs with curve parameters. So YMMV.

And yes, the Advanced Synthesis page adds in depth sound control and synthesis, actually a complete synthesizer with multi synthesis for each drum sound. So it's a bit busy. Well, you're not obliged to dive into it, because with all the macro controls of the Eazy Page you can already do a lot to customise any drum sound. But for those who love/want/need absolute and in depth control, I think it's good to have it there.

Once gain, StiX tries to adpat to one's workflow, needs and skills at moment M of the life of a project. Want still a lot of power and/or immediate results : Just use the Eazy Synthesis page + multiline XoX view. This combo alone offers controls that are unseen on any drum machine ( PolyStep ), and powerfull macros that are only found in a few *advanced* drum machines ( Step modulators ). Want even more control : Go to the Advanced synthesis page, just one click away, and here you'll get a lot of possibilities. Almost endless.

Well, at least, that's the global philosophy, and what we tried to achieve. Thanks for the suggestions anyway.

[Lotuzia]

Yes, i did check those at the time. Its not the FX.

Hi, so I just tried this morning, in 2 hosts, and when the volume slider of a drumpad is zeroed ( AND all fx sends zeroed forthis channel, even with reverb/delay etc atcivated) I have zero sound on StiX output. Cubase mix desk exhibits a - infinite symbol as well, wich seems to guarantee that there's not even a residual signal.

I have also exported a .wav render file (just to be sure) and it's flat as flat can be.

So that I think there are several possibilities :

1/ Some send level were active ( send are pre fader in StiX current versions )
2/ If you had automated StiX volume fader, maybe the drumpad volume curve wasn't totally zeroed (because of parameter automation not getting to absolute zero -xfer function-), or because the slider of the midi control device wasnt getting to zero ( I have one fader on my Novation that unfortunately works like that from the beginning) So the question is : Did you use automation to perform the Fade, or did it manually from StiX UI.
3/ It affects only certain drumpads ( I tried around 12 different ones but well ....)
4/ It affects only certain pads on certain channels ( though all channels share the same code but well ... )
5/ Another solution that I cant figure atm
6/ There was something wrong in your signal chain/host/ etc leading to these results
7/ Only affects a certain system/host/daw/version combination, so we would need more info about the conditions of the test.

In any case, more info would be appreciated, cos I cant replicate this on my systems. And some other people cant replicate it on Mac based systems also.

[AnX]

Happens on all sounds. No automation. No fx. Clean signal in host. Win7 64. Thanks

[marvotron]

Well, to answer you, the way StiX deals with Adsr is different than what can be usually found. ADSR works together with the per step GATE TIME of the sequencer. You can get a variety of shapes with this alone. I think more than with 3 segments EVs commonly found on drum machines.

LFOs with/without retrigger can act like additional/simultaneous envelopes. By combining them with the ADSR, you can get a lot of additional shapes as well. ( especially because LFOs can have cumulative waveforms)

There's a bit more though. Envelope segments can be adressed as modulation targets. If you modulate envelope segments with oscillators, LFOs, or other envelopes -self modulation- , or anything else, you can still get additional shapes. And by combining all the above you still get additional shapes. Also ADSR have time multipliers. So that add a lot as well. Actually, I think that will all these possible modulations, there are probably very few EV shapes that StiX can't produce.

...

I understand and at this point it becomes more a matter of taste and opinion than anything else. My personal preference is to try to slice or constrain complex state spaces to provide the user with a more limited landscape, but one in which most choices are useful (for example the microtonic way) OR if you allow access to a large amount of complexity then provide tools for managing it at a higher level, for example in Zebra you have the 4 X/Y panels onto which you can map a huge range of parameters so as you design the sound you can add the constraints yourself, or the other common system of mappable macro controls.

And yes, the Advanced Synthesis page adds in depth sound control and synthesis, actually a complete synthesizer with multi synthesis for each drum sound. So it's a bit busy. Well, you're not obliged to dive into it, because with all the macro controls of the Eazy Page you can already do a lot to customise any drum sound. But for those who love/want/need absolute and in depth control, I think it's good to have it there.

Sure, to expand on my point, its not that I think the advanced view has too many controls, just that the layout of the whole UI feels very uneven. I like advanced views, I like lots of controls, but visually I found it very confusing.

[lalo]

havin so much fun with StiX!!
please please VST automation for ALL synthesis parameters

[Lotuzia]

Happens on all sounds. No automation. No fx. Clean signal in host. Win7 64. Thanks

Hmmm we cant reproduce this in any of our systems. So we cant fix it atm, sorry for that. If you feel you can feed to Xils-lab a full detailed report including a rendered audio clip + OS/system/host/versions including stix versions etc thanks in advance.

Else possible turnarounds are : StiX *mute* automation, host mixer channel automation ( while using StiX with separate outputs version ), StiX individual drum level automation ( Drum level in StiX midi map, different from Drum Mixer level )

If other people have this behaviour please feel free to post here.

[Lotuzia]

Well, to answer you, the way StiX deals with Adsr is different than what can be usually found. ADSR works together with the per step GATE TIME of the sequencer. You can get a variety of shapes with this alone. I think more than with 3 segments EVs commonly found on drum machines.

LFOs with/without retrigger can act like additional/simultaneous envelopes. By combining them with the ADSR, you can get a lot of additional shapes as well. ( especially because LFOs can have cumulative waveforms)

There's a bit more though. Envelope segments can be adressed as modulation targets. If you modulate envelope segments with oscillators, LFOs, or other envelopes -self modulation- , or anything else, you can still get additional shapes. And by combining all the above you still get additional shapes. Also ADSR have time multipliers. So that add a lot as well. Actually, I think that will all these possible modulations, there are probably very few EV shapes that StiX can't produce.

...

I understand and at this point it becomes more a matter of taste and opinion than anything else. My personal preference is to try to slice or constrain complex state spaces to provide the user with a more limited landscape, but one in which most choices are useful (for example the microtonic way) OR if you allow access to a large amount of complexity then provide tools for managing it at a higher level, for example in Zebra you have the 4 X/Y panels onto which you can map a huge range of parameters so as you design the sound you can add the constraints yourself, or the other common system of mappable macro controls.

And yes, the Advanced Synthesis page adds in depth sound control and synthesis, actually a complete synthesizer with multi synthesis for each drum sound. So it's a bit busy. Well, you're not obliged to dive into it, because with all the macro controls of the Eazy Page you can already do a lot to customise any drum sound. But for those who love/want/need absolute and in depth control, I think it's good to have it there.

Sure, to expand on my point, its not that I think the advanced view has too many controls, just that the layout of the whole UI feels very uneven. I like advanced views, I like lots of controls, but visually I found it very confusing.

Hmmm. You can create your own macros in StiX, in the Advanced Synthesis page.
Then on StiX its not either Eazy Synthesis like the dm you refer to, OR advanced synthesis like on the synth you refer to, it's both (only one click away) . Btw the advanced synthesis GUI/UI section has been totally reorganised in the last beta ( superior to V0.96b) so I dont know if you're refering to this version, or previous ones. StiX GUI/UI is not yet finished. We're patiently revamping every section until we reach v1.0 status. Then, we'll see for the definitive comments on it. And finally I will not comment the StiX VS the two units you mentioned. Obviously StiX can do a lot of things in all areas ( Synthesis, Sequencing, interactions between synthesis and sequencing) that these units cant. (The opposite might be true as well.) They also sound vastly different. So, sorry it did not make it for you ...

[Lotuzia]

havin so much fun with StiX!!
please please VST automation for ALL synthesis parameters

Thanks Lalo. Glad youenjoy it.

We completed Midi Cc automation in the last Beta ( V0.96b)

In this mode you can automate nearly all StiX parameters. So that means almost a hundred of parameters per drum sound. And several hundreds for the whole unit.

As obviously automating and assigning 800 parameters would be very cumbersome, we decided to *chanellise* the automation : BD drumpad *slot* will receive automation on Channel Midi 1, Snare slot on Ch midi 2 aso. If the filter cutoff is assigned to midi Cc 31, then it will always be assigned to that midi Cc for all drumpads. Only the midi channel will route the automation to the BD or the Snare etc etc.

So, I know that it's not precisely what you're after, because midi cc automation is interpolated, and VST automation is more precise. Atm tbh we have not found a solution for a convenient way to expose several hundreds of parameters via VST automation. Hope we will find one.

I'm building a minimal *midimap*, based on the default midi implementation of my novation KB. ( Without using automap, just the regular midi CC sending) It will be included as the default midi map in StiX future versions, so that people can start with a populated map, and dont have to build one from scratch themselves.

[lalo]

Hi Lotuzia,
thanks for the info.
Yes is very cumbersome to deal with MIDI CC in a modern DAW.
I have dozen of VSTs with hundreds of parameters exposed (i.e. u-he Zebra).
Is there any limitation for the parameter number in the VST SDK?
I think that the whole XILS synths would benefit a lot in flexibility and integration with DAW if a true VST parameter automation would be done.
Dynamic VSTs as Reaktor or Kontakt have a dynamic way to assign parameters to VST automation slots.
I'm still hoping for the future

[marvotron]

Hmmm. You can create your own macros in StiX, in the Advanced Synthesis page.

So you can. I could say this only re-inforces my point about the UI being confusing or you could say I wasn't paying enough attention.

One thing is im encouraged by the fact that you're engaging with issues and criticism so i'll definitely keep my eye on things and keep trying each update because I do love drum synths. No so keen on internal sequencers in drum plugins because I either use the DAW or generate sequences from Reaktor, but thats just me.

To refine my criticism down to my use cases : with any drum synth I always start by trying to synthesize 4 things :

1: a solid Roland x0x sounding kick, both 808 and 909 style. With this I got close-ish for the 808 but it felt quite 'fiddly'.

2: closed hi hat. this is generally the easiest with some noise and a BP or HP filter, but again the default envelope shape didn't feel quite right for this sound.

3: Snare (again x0x style, 606 / 808 / 909). The 3 OSC setup is perfect for this, 2 for the body tones and Noise for the 'snare' but I find that the combination of the noise spectrum and the filter response is always too 'sharp', like there is always a touch too much resonance on the filters so I couldn't get the snares to 'punch' they just 'crack' a bit too much.

4: Clap. Claps are hard to synthesize, i've spent many hours trying . With StiX I couldn't even see where I would start with getting the initial roll (i.e. re-triggered very short decay envelopes spaced about 10ms apart)

I just went through the advanced UI again and the main source of confusion is the layout of the Oscillator section because the PEV controls are layed out perpendicular to the actual oscillator controls. It might be worth considering using some of that spare space in the Envelopes section to sort out the Oscillator section

[Ingonator]

Yesterday at another thread i posted that in StiX the zero delay feedback filter could produce nice kick drum sounds based on Self-oscillation. This means the Reonance is set to maximum and the oscillators set to off (= volume/level at 0). Depending on the Cutoff, envelope amount and filter envelope settings it'S possible to get different nce sounds that way.

As also mentioned in the other thread some older plugins do not seem to do self-oscillation properly or are not able to do it at all.
Due to that i just tested Waldorf Attack v2 (from Waldorf Edition 2) which i really love and even if it's really old could still produce great sounds (v2 also added sample import and additional FXs to that).
Anyway what i just found that the filter in Attack v2 is not able to do filter Self-oscillation at all, the sound just stays silent at maximum Resonance (when oscillators are off). Compared to StiX it also seems to miss the option to do Filter FM.

You could create a bunch of different kick drum sounds without self-oscillation but several of those possible with Self-oscillation seem to be difficult or even impossible to recreate (at least without using samples).

For high Resonance until Self-oscillation (and without loosing too much low end) and also doing Filter FM (or both at once) a filter with zero delay feedback technology like that in StiX (and other Xils Lab synths) seems to be perfect.
In StiX even at maximum Resonance the low end still seems to be great which is where many older plugins (and also some newer ones...) seem to lack. I had found this e.g. when comparing my Ensonq ESQ-1 synth (hybrid synth with a CEM analog filter) to the SQ8L plugin (which at lower Resonance is a great emulation and also has a good low end at low Resonance).

I also found that the BP6 filter (opposing to teh LPF modes) could be great for kick drum sounds when used at Self-oscillation (maximum Resonance). In terms of low end this could be even better than a LPF, depending on teh Cutoff and Filter ENV amount.

When reducing the bit-depth in StiX when using Self-oscillation or "normal" sounds you could get some interesting results. When you go down top around 14 bits or lower (default is 24-bit) you could add some noise to the sound.

FWIW my Waldorf Pulse 2 analog synth is capable of Self-oscillation for all 4 filter modes (24dB LPF, 12dB LPF, 12dB BP, 12dB HP) and i had created a lead sound based on this along my factory presets for teh Pulse 2 (for this filter key tracking at 100% and tuning with the cutoff amount with help of a tuning plugin was necessary). Have not tried using self-oscillation for drum sounds with this yet but i will try ASAP.



Ingo