Do you have to play an instrument?

[VicDiesel]

These skilled people are actually very needed for the people writing the music .. imagine all these late 60´s, early 70´s orchestra-pop productions (bacharach, spector, carpenters, free-design, beachboys, beatles etc. etc.) without all these wonderful session-musicians ..

And don't forget about the people writing the music themselves! Arranging is also craft that takes lots of knowledge. Knowing how to orchestrate instruments is skill that takes time to develop. Knowing a lot about all the instruments, as well as about harmony and all that is absolutely indispensible.

V.

[Lunatique]

Riiiight. You obviously have no idea about how many of the musical masterminds of the 20th century are completely self taught. Will hit a class ceiling my ass. Take Brian Eno for instance. Completely self-taught.

brian eno

Eno has done complex and sophisticated orchestral compositions that rival Ravel and Debussy? That is news to me. I mean, I like his music and the contribution he's made as a producer/collaborator to other musicians, but I don't know if he's what you'd call a composer in the classical sense. AFAIK, he's never composed anything remotely close to the sophistication of Ravel or Debussy.

Please tell me anyone who does know the theory and is working in that tradition who can compose music of that quality.

Well, exactly. If it's damn hard for trained classical composer, it would be humanly impossible for someone without theory knowledge. Thus the idea that knowing theory helps expand your musical vocabulary/palette tremendously--not the other way around.

Riiiiiiight. This is just getting too absurd. Their early records never really strayed from the path Kraftwerk had set almost five years earlier, and their later releases were more of synth-pop, and rather unremarkable at that.

Have you actually heard Sakamoto's B2 Unit album? Do you know much about Sakamoto at all? Have you listened to his opera? His classical works? His jazz works? His various film scores?

Well, let us. Brian Eno vs Ryuichi Sakamoto. What conclusion should I draw?

Ok, lets. Can Eno compose operas? Grand and complex orchestral works? Award-winning film scores? Is he well-versed in Bossa Nova, jazz, french impressionism, classical, and various musical styles of various ethnic cultures and time periods? Can he play any instrument as well as Sakamoto can play the piano/keyboard? Has he explored as wide a range of musical styles as Sakamoto has in his career thus far, and incorporated as many into his own works? I'm sorry, they are not even in the same league. And I have nothing against Eno--as I said, I do like his music.

[Sascha Franck]

Can Sakamoto play punk?
And I don't mean imitating it, but playing it with the proper attitude and all?

There's styles of music where it doesn't help at all whether you have massive skills.

And then there's mouse composing in any of the various pattern based sequencers.
I've heard amazing things being done by people not knowing a single thing about theory, also not playing any instrument.

[tee boy]

I hear what you're saying totally there mate, but i can also see the other side of the coin. Western music has always been about rules, rules and f**king more rules. Many might argue that the only way to work with a free mind is to never learn that stuff in the first place. Music is an art not a science, yet when studying composition and orchestration you might wonder! Maybe the best way to make music is to disregard all the rules and composer from the heart? This is how all the old jazz guys worked, and as you say, Sakamoto studies them.

Not saying this view is right or wrong, but its definately valid.

[Sascha Franck]

I know both sides of the coin personally.
I started as a totally trial-and-error selftaught musician, then I went on to studying things (first by myself, later on I had to do so on the music university).
Back when I knew nothing I was allways inspired to look out for new sounds, techniques, options and whatever.
Now I often just use what I know.
Performance is better these days, inspiration (at least most of the times) less.

[McLilith]

Back when I knew nothing I was allways inspired to look out for new sounds, techniques, options and whatever.
Now I often just use what I know.
Performance is better these days, inspiration (at least most of the times) less.

So, perhaps the regimented training that makes one a better performer of music isn't quite as important when it comes to being an inspired composer of music. I personally would gladly settle for being thought of as an inspired composer of music, even if I never could perform more than two notes in a row without screwing something up.

Wait... Composers don't have groupies, do they? Maybe there is more value in performing than I first thought.


later,
McLilith

[TrekStar]

several times I've read now that some musicians of you have come to a certain dead point "because" of their harmonical knowledge and learnt instrument. they're somehow "trapped" in always the same licks and chords. I think everybody knows such fruitless periods. but the conclusion that you were more creative at the beginning of your musical way is questionable.

1. the impression of having been more creative without musical knowledge is a subjective illusion. you knew nothing or not much about harmonics and chord progressions ...so nearly everything that you have discoverd by accident seemed new and progressive.
And for the case that the beginning of your musical activities is already longer ago and you remember that you were better: that has propably more to do with the hormone level of teenage days....

2. instead of complaining that you were formerly better there is also the alternative to go on. learn something new! work on a sheet music, cover a difficult song, take a couple of lessons, get a teaching video or whatever you like. after a while of getting nu input you will see that your own new ideas will flow again. so you won't like to hear it...if you're stuck in your musical process it's not the fault of the learnt stuff...it is just the lack of getting new impulses.

3. some people here claimed that progressive music has to do with breaking the rules. good. ok. that can be a source. but to break a rule you first have to know it. in musical terms that means...if you want to leave convential harmonical paths...you first have to know them. otherwise its just a blind flight....nothing what also an ape could reproduce hammering on the piano keyboard.
and don't be stuck to the idea that nu & progressive stuff is only located in the unconventional/atonal sector. just because you can't find it, that does not mean that there are some some nu & exciting tone/chord combinations hidden within the "normal" harmonical correlations.

I think meanwhile the discussion has reached a reasonable level. How much musical knowledge/education can boost or hinder a composing process...that is something we can have different opinions. I would say a good daily program of working on some musical pieces to get the nu input and some relaxed improvisation on the other hand is a good way. But remember the absurd title of this thread. Making music without a musical instrument. Would be pretty difficult without even touching a chord instrument like the piano or the guitar.

[putte]

3. some people here claimed that progressive music has to do with breaking the rules. good. ok. that can be a source. but to break a rule you first have to know it. in musical terms that means...if you want to leave convential harmonical paths...you first have to know them. otherwise its just a blind flight....nothing what also an ape could reproduce hammering on the piano keyboard.

i dont think so.

as i said, i never learned notes or anything about music theory, therefor i dont "know" the rules.
A friend of mine who did learn all the stuff once listened to a piano-piece of mine and said "you know putte, what you play there is actually ´wrong´, from the educated musician point of view .. but i love it, and could never ever have such an idea to play something like this cause i´d know its ´wrong´ to play it".

so: i dont have to know the rules to break them, and its also not a blind flight.

its just sound and tones, nothing more nothing less.

putte

[TrekStar]

putte...then you are a hero...a natural talent as most of the people here...


no...to be serious...you music is not beyond the normal harmonics....

[CypherOne]

oh good, another argument

[putte]

oh good, another argument

no, cause i won´t .. .. there´s no need to.

putte

[Kriminal]

oh good, another argument

No it isnt!

[CypherOne]

yes you will

[CypherOne]

oh good, another argument

No it isnt!

outside, now!

[putte]

especially when it comes to music i cant see ANY need to argue at all .. sure, i giggle about some comments here and think "hrhrhrh", but then again its amusing and okay, as people see things diffrently.

putte