Cubase - best way to automate gain before compression?

[LGK_Dude]

I usually use region gain (i.e. splitting a single audio track into segments) to adjust levels per phrase before they hit any compression, but this can become problematic when you want to adjust the gain inside a single phrase. I'm very envious of ProTools users right now who have the ability to actually draw nodes with their clip gain, which is all done pre-fader and is reflected visually in the waveform. (see thread here - https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... 28&t=77469 )

The best work around I'm using is to automate the Pre-Gain, which I guess works ok but I would really love it if the audio visually adjusted for this volume automation. Plus the whole automation process seems so much faster in ProTools.

Anyway I guess I came to vent, but if you agree please reply or maybe offer some advice. If you really want to see change maybe help let steinberg know this is a feature request we want.

[SJ_Digriz]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

[DMG68]

Send your track to a group with the compressor on it, then you can automate the volume of the original channel.

[Mister Gibson]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

[keyman_sam]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

One reason I can think of - you can't "see" your changes. Often times when your ears deceive you, the waveform is your best guide.

[SJ_Digriz]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

One reason I can think of - you can't "see" your changes. Often times when your ears deceive you, the waveform is your best guide.

Cubase has waveform out monitoring. And there are plenty of analysis plugs. Anyhow, this allows for clip/region by clip automation points for each track.

[LGK_Dude]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

One reason I can think of - you can't "see" your changes. Often times when your ears deceive you, the waveform is your best guide.

Yeah, it was mainly because of the visual cues clip gain offers and the idea of massaging the vocal performance before any dynamic processing. I still automate inputs to compressors like the rest of us, but then I'm no longer thinking about vocal performance, but now color and compressor performance. For me it's a different mind space, but I'm more of a musician/composer than a mixer so perhaps I'm off base.

It's probably just a case of me watching mix tutorials and seeing a process I thought was cool from protools and getting DAW envy.

[LGK_Dude]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

One reason I can think of - you can't "see" your changes. Often times when your ears deceive you, the waveform is your best guide.

Cubase has waveform out monitoring. And there are plenty of analysis plugs. Anyhow, this allows for clip/region by clip automation points for each track.

Wait there are analysis plugins that replicate wave form view; not EQ Spectrum but actual waveforms over time (e.g. I can see phrase 1s loudness while I volume adjust phrase 2?) if so please drop a name as I seriously didn't know these existed! That combined with pre volume automation might be exactly what I need!

P.s. For those who are going to say "mix with your ears not your eyes" I find mixing with both to be helpful as I find my ears do deceive me the longer I work, but again I'm not a professional mix engineer so again maybe I'm off base here as well.m

[SJ_Digriz]

It's probably just a case of me watching mix tutorials and seeing a process I thought was cool from protools and getting DAW envy.

Like a lot of things, it is a minor convenience for a limited use case, that gets blown out of proportion for real world usefulness. It's funny because that is a specific technical mixing approach and not musical at all. And you see yourself as a musician. In which case it would be more natural to ride fader. No right or wrong by the way. There are reasons for that use case. They just aren't broad enough to be necessary across the board in daws...because you can do the same process with an automation lane.

[LawrenceF]

Cubase has had editable clip gain envelopes, with nodes like automation, since like... the SX days I think ... and unless (?) Steiny suddenly removed them, which would be really, really bizarre, they'd still be there.

The only thing that makes sense here is if you have one of the lower tiered versions, Essential or something, that maybe doesn't have it, but IIRC, you can draw clip gain envelopes directly on audio clips with the pencil tool.



Yikes. I just read that Steiny forum thread. Did Steiny remove that 10-12+ year old feature or are there actually 2 pages of users asking for something they already have and just don't know it?

[jancivil]

Is there a reason you don't just automate input gain on the compressor like the rest of the world?

One reason I can think of - you can't "see" your changes. Often times when your ears deceive you, the waveform is your best guide.

Yeah, it was mainly because of the visual cues clip gain offers and the idea of massaging the vocal performance before any dynamic processing.

I do quite a bit of massaging of audio regions (and looking at waveforms); only I do it in the audio editor (audio part) offline. Here the 'offline process' has a history and you can relitigate the edit selectively, undoing (or replacing) that one move.

[kelldammit]

Cubase has had editable clip gain envelopes, with nodes like automation, since like... the SX days I think ... and unless (?) Steiny suddenly removed them, which would be really, really bizarre, they'd still be there.

The only thing that makes sense here is if you have one of the lower tiered versions, Essential or something, that maybe doesn't have it, but IIRC, you can draw clip gain envelopes directly on audio clips with the pencil tool.



Yikes. I just read that Steiny forum thread. Did Steiny remove that 10-12+ year old feature or are there actually 2 pages of users asking for something they already have and just don't know it?

It's still there in 8/8.5 Pro, for sure. I just used it yesterday.
Just zoom in on the waveform in the arrangement (so that you can see what you're doing), select the pencil tool, and start drawing in your nodes. The waveform will adapt to show the change, so there is that visual feedback. Unlike PT or DP, however, there is not a db value visible for each node, which i do rather miss...otherwise, it works fine.

[EDIT] Also, another neat way to operate: you can drawn in your nodes as above, and when you switch out of pencil mode, you can still use the overall clip gain as a "trim" if you need to. That can be somewhat handy as well.[/EDIT]
cheers,
kell

[LawrenceF]

Thanks Kell. I wasn't sure when that showed up exactly, what version, but I knew it was long, long ago, so I checked it out. It showed up in SX3, 2004 or so...



The PT method is an improvement on that in one obvious way, it behaves like a trim/gain knob, the envelope starts in the middle and you can apply change either way. With Cubase's you can only trim, not gain, with the editable envelope. It starts at the top of the clip and afaik, you can't gain a clip past it's starting gain with that envelope, only with the other one, or a combination of the two.

[kelldammit]

Thanks Kell. I wasn't sure when that showed up exactly, what version, but I knew it was long, long ago, so I checked it out. It showed up in SX3, 2004 or so...



The PT method is an improvement on that in one obvious way, it behaves like a trim/gain knob, the envelope starts in the middle and you can apply change either way. With Cubase's you can only trim, not gain, with the editable envelope. It starts at the top of the clip and afaik, you can't gain a clip past it's starting gain with that envelope, only with the other one, or a combination of the two.

Yeah, DP got it around '06 (v4.5). It also lets you gain upward, and allows for manual entry of node values (which is nice). It doesn't modify the waveform display to show any change, and overall clip gain isn't handled in the same place. So PT sort of nailed the best of both.

[Mister Gibson]

...I find my ears do deceive me the longer I work...

Edited