ARP 2600 Clone?

[ghettosynth]

In my latest obsession, I threw ARP2600v into the mix to see how it's audio rate filter modulation held up. Surprisingly well! It only falls apart in high resonances, but boy does it fall apart spectacularly. To be honest though, not much else really fared all that well in the software department. Even my beloved ProTone choked when the resonance was cranked up.

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

While I have used those sounds, it's not about that, it's about exaggerating how the filter responds at high resonance. As you back off of the resonance you still hear the effects, it's just not as obvious an indicator. As I said earlier, this is my acid test to determine if the filter is old or new. However, the overall sound of the filter is simply much better with Uhe's filters and the new Reaktor filters than with the 2600v. Side by side, you realize immediately that the 2600v is ten years old or so in terms of development.

I also have to retract what I said about oversampling, that's not going to be enough with the 2600v. I spent quite a bit of time this morning playing with different synths up to 192k sample rate. Yes, it changes the sound, maybe it improves it, but it's not just about the filter being fast it's about the non-linearities being modeled well.

Side by side with Bazille, there's just no comparison. Interestingly, and not that cpu usage is an acid test of quality, but I stand by it as a somewhat consistent measure in practice. That is, high usage doesn't necessarily mean good quality, but low usage does tend to indicate low quality. The 2600v took 2% cpu at 44.1k, about 10% at 192k. I can't run Bazille on HQ at 96k with multicore on the same machine for most patches. With multicore turned off (for a valid comparison), at 48k Bazille takes from 50% to 60% CPU for many patches.

For people thinking that's high, keep in mind that it's my laptop which is a few years old now and only a dual core i5. They run much better on my desktops.

I do find it interesting that the M12v takes much more CPU than the 2600v, and although in some ways it sounds better, it's not clear to me that arturia has yet really figured out how to make really good filter models.

[pdxindy]

I also have to retract what I said about oversampling, that's not going to be enough with the 2600v. I spent quite a bit of time this morning playing with different synths up to 192k sample rate. Yes, it changes the sound, maybe it improves it, but it's not just about the filter being fast it's about the non-linearities being modeled well.

Yeah... over-sampling can deal with some aliasing, but it does nothing with the bland predictability.

I went and listened to a bunch of 2600 audio and it sounds so alive. Then I went and listened to the 2600v and it sounded so plain. The difference to me was like night and day. The 2600v doesn't have those magical non-linearities that unexpectedly materialize as modulations happen. Those characteristics may not be dramatic, but they add an alive character.

[pdxindy]

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

But that treats the whole thing like an on/off switch. For me, the beauty is found pushing it... not as far as it can go, but to the point where the sound just starts to destabilize in non-linear ways and you get all sorts of character emerging... a little screech, some grunt or growl, that lovely tearing sound. That stuff is musically useful and expressive and characterful.

[pdxindy]

Side by side with Bazille, there's just no comparison. Interestingly, and not that cpu usage is an acid test of quality, but I stand by it as a somewhat consistent measure in practice. That is, high usage doesn't necessarily mean good quality, but low usage does tend to indicate low quality. The 2600v took 2% cpu at 44.1k, about 10% at 192k. I can't run Bazille on HQ at 96k with multicore on the same machine for most patches. With multicore turned off (for a valid comparison), at 48k Bazille takes from 50% to 60% CPU for many patches.

For people thinking that's high, keep in mind that it's my laptop which is a few years old now and only a duel core i5. They run much better on my desktops.

I do find it interesting that the M12v takes much more CPU than the 2600v, and although in some ways it sounds better, it's not clear to me that arturia has yet really figured out how to make really good filter models.

A real Arp 2600 sounds like a wild animal and the 2600v a domesticated one.

Some of the Reaktor 6 blocks audio demos have made me sit up and take notice. NI is doing some good development work.

I love running Bazille at 96k. It gives that little bit extra. Bazille can make me forget its a softsynth. There are times when it sounds like real electricity bursting out like the snap of an electrical arc.

It's exciting that Urs has not sat back but is still pushing the filter development into new territory.

[zerocrossing]

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

But that treats the whole thing like an on/off switch. For me, the beauty is found pushing it... not as far as it can go, but to the point where the sound just starts to destabilize in non-linear ways and you get all sorts of character emerging... a little screech, some grunt or growl, that lovely tearing sound. That stuff is musically useful and expressive and characterful.

No, I agree with that. I'm just saying that 2600v isn't as horrible as it's often made out to be. Is it up to U-he/XILS/NI standards? Nope. But that doesn't mean that there's not some good tones to be had with it. Of course, saying all that, I'll fully admit that I got it with a bundle and I basically never use it and only loaded it up to assess it for this thread. I probably should just sell my entire Arturia collection. If dust could gather on hard disc platters, they'd be mighty dusty. Not even SEMv gets much use. I'd rather use my Studio Electronics ATC-X in SEM filter mode. It's got an extra envelope and LFO!

I also think it suffers from a bad UI, and I mean this in multiple ways. It's too small, but also, it's one of those plug ins that tries too hard to look like the original. Scrolling down to get to the sequencer and what-not, is just awkward. The odd physics of the cables is just silly. What are they made of? I think things could be done a lot better. I think a dual view system that was like a flow chart showing connections (think something like KarmaFX Modular) but usually more like VAZ modular would be a much better solution. Maybe it breaks the illusion that you've got an ARP2600 in front of you... but if you're fooled by a computer screen, you've got bigger problems than bad software emulations.

[zerocrossing]

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

But that treats the whole thing like an on/off switch. For me, the beauty is found pushing it... not as far as it can go, but to the point where the sound just starts to destabilize in non-linear ways and you get all sorts of character emerging... a little screech, some grunt or growl, that lovely tearing sound. That stuff is musically useful and expressive and characterful.

Off topic a bit, but while testing software filters that allow for ARM of cutoff, the XILS 3 so far does by far the best job at high resonance, and that includes my Scope system. Check it.

[pdxindy]

No, I agree with that. I'm just saying that 2600v isn't as horrible as it's often made out to be. Is it up to U-he/XILS/NI standards? Nope. But that doesn't mean that there's not some good tones to be had with it.

Sure, lots of satisfying music can be made with the 2600v... and other synths too. Whether it can be a useful synth and where it stands as an emulation are two entirely different questions in my book.

[pdxindy]

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

But that treats the whole thing like an on/off switch. For me, the beauty is found pushing it... not as far as it can go, but to the point where the sound just starts to destabilize in non-linear ways and you get all sorts of character emerging... a little screech, some grunt or growl, that lovely tearing sound. That stuff is musically useful and expressive and characterful.

Off topic a bit, but while testing software filters that allow for ARM of cutoff, the XILS 3 so far does by far the best job at high resonance, and that includes my Scope system. Check it.

I haven't looked much at that synth cause I don't like the XILS copy protection.

Here is an audio example I just made using Bazille... one preset with the only sound source a single self oscillating filter that is audio rate modulated by an Osc that is itself linear FM'ed and modulated by the sequencer. A bit of the filter output is fed back into itself.

http://draigathar.org/sounds/B87.mp3

[electro]

But, here's the thing. While the analogs were producing some interesting tones with osc filter FM and resonance cranked, it's not like a sound that most of us would use... possibly ever except for percussion style sounds.

But that treats the whole thing like an on/off switch. For me, the beauty is found pushing it... not as far as it can go, but to the point where the sound just starts to destabilize in non-linear ways and you get all sorts of character emerging... a little screech, some grunt or growl, that lovely tearing sound. That stuff is musically useful and expressive and characterful.

Off topic a bit, but while testing software filters that allow for ARM of cutoff, the XILS 3 so far does by far the best job at high resonance, and that includes my Scope system. Check it.

I haven't looked much at that synth cause I don't like the XILS copy protection.

XILS let you choose between ilok and elicenser. Timewarp2600 is PACE

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[pdxindy]

Here is another Bazille audio example I made just now... something more 'musical'

http://draigathar.org/sounds/B88.mp3

Starts with 2 sine Osc's going to a filter. The filter resonance is well into self oscillation. The filter is FM'ing the sine Osc's and the filter cutoff is modulated at audio rate by another Osc 4 octaves above the main Osc pitch. High resonance and plenty of audio rate modulation plus filter self feedback and the sound stays coherent... It shows how solid the Bazille filters are even under some extreme settings.

[djscorb]

I would love a real 2600.

One of m favourite soft synths is u-he ACE. It is loosely based on the architecture of the 2600 and can do a few of it's tricks. Sounds pretty decent to my ears, and at the price, it's a steal

Cheers

Scorb

[justin3am]

I really enjoy the Arturia's 2600v. I'm not really concerned about authenticity. I've heard 3 different 2600s and each sounded very different from each other (beyond the obviously different filter models). The filter and oscillator sounds pretty good to me and the drawable LFOs are really useful. All the ways the sequencer can be modulated is what makes it a real winner, for me.

This has 2600v all over it (and some Bazille):
https://soundcloud.com/justin3am/determined

It's just a sound design experiment but the whole thing was done with just one instance of each instrument, so it kinda shows the wide range of sounds you can get out of a single patch.

[justin3am]

I was really interested in the TTSH clone project. I came really close to getting a set of boards. The project would have cost >$3000 and while that's a third of what a decent 2600 is selling for, it's still too much for me to spend on kit.

[EnGee]

I would love a real 2600.

One of m favourite soft synths is u-he ACE. It is loosely based on the architecture of the 2600 and can do a few of it's tricks. Sounds pretty decent to my ears, and at the price, it's a steal

Cheers

Scorb

You made me curious to try ACE. I have Bazille and it I love it, but I like to have 2600 emulations. I believe u-he can do it great in software while Korg might be able to nail it in hardware. NI also can do it in Reaktor, but it would be very cpu heavy I can imagine.

I really wish that u-he would do one like Arturia's design (I mean with Sequencer). Bazille can be the base for such project which is already more complex than ARP 2600.