Tracktion 7 (Preview)

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Mivo]

I think my "problem" (it really isn't one) with Tracktion is how much it is still in flux. That by itself is fantastic, but these aren't free updates. I had bought T5 and the Groove3 video series along with it. Shortly after, T6 was announced, not a free update. Then a pay-for book, which fills the place of the non-existing manual. Less than a year later, T7 is coming around. The innovation and development speed is great, the fact that you pay every time while the software takes shape on a rather meta level isn't.

It's more about the principle here than the thirty bucks. In a way, I feel kind of cheap for mentioning this, because overall it's peanuts, but I look at Reaper or Renoise and the value is so much better there. You pay the same price for a license and you're good for several years of updates -- a lot of them, in case of Reaper. You get manuals, too.

Sure, compared to other products and their annual upgrade prices it's still inexpensive, but... well, I want to say they offer more than Tracktion and are more settled, but the truth is I don't use any of those DAWs either, precisely because of the recurring and scheduled update fees. I always feel this type of business model encourages and rewards developers to hold back features and fixes so they can stuff them in the next pay-for update. FL Studio has also spoiled me. It's nice to get lifetime upgrades even if the upfront cost is higher (than Tracktion's price).

I do like Tracktion, which is why the above doesn't sit right with me, why I care. I'm more torn than opposed, really. I think perhaps it's smartest to just wait a few years until Tracktion's development has settled. But that's kind of boring, too.

[relayer]

For midi editing, I wish Tracktion would add an option for a midi editor tab or pop up. I know this goes against the single screen interface, but it would make midi editing less clunky. If they keep the existing midi method, they could still have the single screen work flow for those who like it and the optional advanced mid editing in a tab or pop up. This could be an option for a mixer as well. Keep the current, but also have a tab or pop up for mixing for people who prefer the 'traditional' mixing.

[koolkeys]

i reckon C has the best inline midi editing in that it's actually usable and real easy to work with. I always wondered why other daw's didn't copy it, and a couple have sure (and cubase might have copied THEM, i don't know so just saying that up front), but every other daw that uses it, bar pro tools, feels weird to me. yes, i think pro tools have nailed inline midi as well. Sonar was ok ish for me but the last time i tried that was X2.

I believe that either Tracktion or Pro Tools were the FIRST to have MIDI editing. They were definitely 1 and 2, if I recall correctly? So it is a bit of a shame that T's isn't a bit more refined. But it seems they are leaping forward in so many areas, so I hope they continue to address it. At least they aren't as bad as some(like Reaper....terrible inline MIDI editor IMO).

T's is a bit unergonomic.. it sort of feels all over the place, to the point that that reason is one of the one's i never moved to T full time, as i am a midi guy.

I'm with ya. Though I did make it all work, when I used Tracktion fully my needs were lighter than they are today. I think it just needs some polishing though, and if they ever DO introduce the ability to pop out a window, the MIDI editor needs to be that window.

I will admit jules added lots of specific midi *functions* i asked for personally so i DO know he listens, so perhaps we should make suggestions on how to overhaul the actual feel of the main editor itself.

He's a GREAT dev and takes it all on the chin.. top bloke, top attitude.. i bet you he regrets ever giving it to the bastardisers that he did. I mean it never goes well, look what happened to studio vision for example Tracktion is back in the hands where it belongs

Absolutely, 1000%. Jules is one of the best. I remember back in the day where the phenoms of the audio world were Jules, Justin and Jorgen. Something about names starting with "J", I guess, lol. SOOOOO happy to see Jules taking the program where it needs to be. The Mackie days, despite promise at first, really should have never happened.

Brent

[pdxindy]

i reckon C has the best inline midi editing in that it's actually usable and real easy to work with. I always wondered why other daw's didn't copy it, and a couple have sure (and cubase might have copied THEM, i don't know so just saying that up front), but every other daw that uses it, bar pro tools, feels weird to me. yes, i think pro tools have nailed inline midi as well. Sonar was ok ish for me but the last time i tried that was X2.

I believe that either Tracktion or Pro Tools were the FIRST to have MIDI editing. They were definitely 1 and 2, if I recall correctly? So it is a bit of a shame that T's isn't a bit more refined. But it seems they are leaping forward in so many areas, so I hope they continue to address it. At least they aren't as bad as some(like Reaper....terrible inline MIDI editor IMO).

Brent

I have not tried Pro Tools but I think inline editing is one of those features that over time just does not work as well as a dedicated editor (at least for me). I quite like how Bitwig does it. Bitwig can certainly be improved and polished but the basic paradigm seems fundamentally superior to me than inline.

I just don't see what could be done in Tracktion to make me like it enough. Trying to make inline the only method seems like an uphill struggle.

[koolkeys]

i reckon C has the best inline midi editing in that it's actually usable and real easy to work with. I always wondered why other daw's didn't copy it, and a couple have sure (and cubase might have copied THEM, i don't know so just saying that up front), but every other daw that uses it, bar pro tools, feels weird to me. yes, i think pro tools have nailed inline midi as well. Sonar was ok ish for me but the last time i tried that was X2.

I believe that either Tracktion or Pro Tools were the FIRST to have MIDI editing. They were definitely 1 and 2, if I recall correctly? So it is a bit of a shame that T's isn't a bit more refined. But it seems they are leaping forward in so many areas, so I hope they continue to address it. At least they aren't as bad as some(like Reaper....terrible inline MIDI editor IMO).

Brent

I have not tried Pro Tools but I think inline editing is one of those features that over time just does not work as well as a dedicated editor (at least for me). I quite like how Bitwig does it. Bitwig can certainly be improved and polished but the basic paradigm seems fundamentally superior to me than inline.

I just don't see what could be done in Tracktion to make me like it enough. Trying to make inline the only method seems like an uphill struggle.

I don't really disagree about the "normal" MIDI editor working better. Of course it does. The inline approach has benefits though. If you want to look at and edit your MIDI in the context of surrounding tracks, there is no better way. Need to line up a MIDI note with some audio? Much easier in an inline editor. Just need a quick edit and don't want to step away from your workflow to open up another tab or window? Inline can make it easy.

I do agree that inline editing isn't as ideal. Ergonomically, it is impossible to put the full MIDI functionality of a dedicated editor into an inline editor. So there are benefits to both. I typically edit in a normal window and not the inline editor for the hosts I use that have it. But there are times when it is the better choice.

The way Bitwig does it is pretty much how most hosts do it, I believe? With the bottom panel opening for the editor? That is how I remember it, which is also how Studio One, Sonar(which also has inline, of course), Reaper and others do it. Did I miss something? Always curious to discover new things.

An inline editor wouldn't even work in Bitwig since you can't really resize the tracks anyways, right? I wouldn't mind trying Bitwig again if there is something different in the MIDI editing department though.

Brent

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[dupont]

For midi editing, I wish Tracktion would add an option for a midi editor tab or pop up. I know this goes against the single screen interface, but it would make midi editing less clunky. If they keep the existing midi method, they could still have the single screen work flow for those who like it and the optional advanced mid editing in a tab or pop up. This could be an option for a mixer as well. Keep the current, but also have a tab or pop up for mixing for people who prefer the 'traditional' mixing.

I agree, having to zoom in and out in T to edit a midi clip is confusing.
Sometimes i'm lost in the arrange view.
I will be easier to edit a midi clip in a seperate or in a tabbed window.

[aMUSEd]

i reckon C has the best inline midi editing in that it's actually usable and real easy to work with. I always wondered why other daw's didn't copy it, and a couple have sure (and cubase might have copied THEM, i don't know so just saying that up front), but every other daw that uses it, bar pro tools, feels weird to me. yes, i think pro tools have nailed inline midi as well. Sonar was ok ish for me but the last time i tried that was X2.

I believe that either Tracktion or Pro Tools were the FIRST to have MIDI editing. They were definitely 1 and 2, if I recall correctly? So it is a bit of a shame that T's isn't a bit more refined. But it seems they are leaping forward in so many areas, so I hope they continue to address it. At least they aren't as bad as some(like Reaper....terrible inline MIDI editor IMO).

Brent

I have not tried Pro Tools but I think inline editing is one of those features that over time just does not work as well as a dedicated editor (at least for me). I quite like how Bitwig does it. Bitwig can certainly be improved and polished but the basic paradigm seems fundamentally superior to me than inline.

I just don't see what could be done in Tracktion to make me like it enough. Trying to make inline the only method seems like an uphill struggle.

I don't really disagree about the "normal" MIDI editor working better. Of course it does. The inline approach has benefits though. If you want to look at and edit your MIDI in the context of surrounding tracks, there is no better way. Need to line up a MIDI note with some audio? Much easier in an inline editor. Just need a quick edit and don't want to step away from your workflow to open up another tab or window? Inline can make it easy.

I do agree that inline editing isn't as ideal. Ergonomically, it is impossible to put the full MIDI functionality of a dedicated editor into an inline editor. So there are benefits to both. I typically edit in a normal window and not the inline editor for the hosts I use that have it. But there are times when it is the better choice.

The way Bitwig does it is pretty much how most hosts do it, I believe? With the bottom panel opening for the editor? That is how I remember it, which is also how Studio One, Sonar(which also has inline, of course), Reaper and others do it. Did I miss something? Always curious to discover new things.

An inline editor wouldn't even work in Bitwig since you can't really resize the tracks anyways, right? I wouldn't mind trying Bitwig again if there is something different in the MIDI editing department though.

Brent

tbh all I use the midi editor for is very occasionally fixing mistakes made while recording my playing, so for me the inline is all I need. But I understand that for people more into composing using the midi editor they want something more powerful. It is ironic that Tracktion was the first host with inline midi (apart from ProTools), like many other Tracktion innovations everyone else stole a lead on it during those days of Mackie abandonment and Tracktion has a lot now to catch up on. I would have no problem with a bottom panel for an enhanced midi editor.

edit - been looking into this, apparently ProTools also had the same philosophy of not having extra windows for dedicated editors for a long time, so when midi sequencing was added in ProTools 5 it was inline and it wasn't until ProTools 8 that they bowed to pressure to add a dedicated midi editor.

[pdxindy]

The way Bitwig does it is pretty much how most hosts do it, I believe? With the bottom panel opening for the editor? That is how I remember it, which is also how Studio One, Sonar(which also has inline, of course), Reaper and others do it. Did I miss something? Always curious to discover new things.

An inline editor wouldn't even work in Bitwig since you can't really resize the tracks anyways, right? I wouldn't mind trying Bitwig again if there is something different in the MIDI editing department though.

Brent

Yes, the bottom panel can open as an editor. There is also a fullscreen version of the same editor. Each has its own key command.

The Bitwig editor can show full tracks or clips, so you can see your clip(s) inline if you want to see what is around them. You can edit multiple clips at once. You can line up notes with audio and you can pick an audio clip to display behind your midi notes if you really want to be precise. You can do the stuff you said the inline editor is good for.

I like the way it handles multiple clips and 'folding' the piano roll to see just the pitches that have notes (drum editor mode). Say you select all the midi clips in a scene. In the editor in regular piano roll the clips sit on top of each other (overlapping) as expected. If you switch to the drum editor, the clips are then not overlapping but distributed from top to bottom... So if you prefer to have a separate track for each drum sound you can still show all the individual midi clips on each track as if it were a single drum sequence... all nicely color coded, orderly, notes named. It's sweet.

There are improvements I'd like to see over time in the Bitwig editor, but I don't think an inline editor would add anything you cannot already do.

I've always found inline clunky due to it adding extra navigation and sometimes getting in the way of macro editing. The Tracktion peeps are creative though and now that I have thought about it more, I think they should stick to the inline editing and figure out innovative ways to improve it. Putting both in seems like something of a cop-out to figuring out how to have one solid method.

Bitwig went the other way as it lets you work 'inline' in the editor. I much prefer the Bitwig approach... and that's why its great there are different tools for different people

[frankvg]

Tracktion peeps are creative though and now that I have thought about it more, I think they should stick to the inline editing and figure out innovative ways to improve it.

Agreed. Using the bottom panel for inline editing wouldn't quite work since you also need the properties panel. I feel the current paradigm still offers lots of room for innovative improvements.

[urlwolf]

I agree that T is unergonomic. But full of promise.

[aMUSEd]

Tracktion is the most ergonomic host I know, it may have some outdated aspects but overall it is beautifully designed with clear use of visual affordances and contextual cues. Most hosts hide too much away, rely too much on context menus and keyboard shortcuts, or overwhelm the user with options. Tracktion gives you what you need when you need it, no other host really does this as well.

[fwsuperhero]

I think my "problem" (it really isn't one) with Tracktion is how much it is still in flux. That by itself is fantastic, but these aren't free updates. I had bought T5 and the Groove3 video series along with it. Shortly after, T6 was announced, not a free update. Then a pay-for book, which fills the place of the non-existing manual. Less than a year later, T7 is coming around. The innovation and development speed is great, the fact that you pay every time while the software takes shape on a rather meta level isn't.

It's more about the principle here than the thirty bucks. In a way, I feel kind of cheap for mentioning this, because overall it's peanuts, but I look at Reaper or Renoise and the value is so much better there. You pay the same price for a license and you're good for several years of updates -- a lot of them, in case of Reaper. You get manuals, too.

Sure, compared to other products and their annual upgrade prices it's still inexpensive, but... well, I want to say they offer more than Tracktion and are more settled, but the truth is I don't use any of those DAWs either, precisely because of the recurring and scheduled update fees. I always feel this type of business model encourages and rewards developers to hold back features and fixes so they can stuff them in the next pay-for update. FL Studio has also spoiled me. It's nice to get lifetime upgrades even if the upfront cost is higher (than Tracktion's price).

I do like Tracktion, which is why the above doesn't sit right with me, why I care. I'm more torn than opposed, really. I think perhaps it's smartest to just wait a few years until Tracktion's development has settled. But that's kind of boring, too.

I wrote almost the same thing some time ago. Tracktion 7 seems like version i should pay for but Tracktion 4 - 6 should be released like one version updates imho. It is reason why i love The Renoise team you mentioned

[jabe]