KVR Audio

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:54 pm

Anybody tried to take a WAV copy of John Cage's 4:33 and making a flac file out of it, what size is the resulting FLAC file in case?

fluffy_little_something · Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:16 pm

Great tune, I wish EDM guys would make such tunes

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:21 pm

Maybe Mannfred Mann can reinvent himself as an EDM artist then?

sprnva · Post by **sprnva** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:23 pm

Numanoid wrote:Anybody tried to take a WAV copy of John Cage's 4:33 and making a flac file out of it, what size is the resulting FLAC file in case?

I don't have it but I put together a quick cover version and remix (44.1KHz, stereo, 16bit):

4:33 (4m33s)
wav = 48,157,244 bytes
flac = 53,656 bytes

4:33 extended 12" dance mix (8m33s)
wav = 90,493,244 bytes
flac = 95,432 bytes

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:26 pm

sprnva wrote:4:33 extended 12" dance mix (8m33s)
wav = 90,493,244 bytes
flac = 95,432 bytes

So just about 10Kb

If all my music was like that, how much HDD space I would save

PALU · Post by **PALU** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:48 pm

Numanoid wrote:Anybody tried to take a WAV copy of John Cage's 4:33 and making a flac file out of it, what size is the resulting FLAC file in case?

I know you're probably not serious, but it's too tempting not to try.

I used a Cage Against the Machine version of 4:33 (from 720p YouTube file - so sorry, not from a vinyl or a master tape this time

). Great version by the way

WAV file 48kHz/16bit - 54,3MB
FLAC compression level 0 - 20,4MB
FLAC compression level 8 - 20MB

and as a bonus:
Apple Lossless - 17,6MB
MP3 320bit VBR - 11MB

fluffy_little_something · Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:49 pm

aciddose wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:Ok, got that
What format is the live DAW sound in? Since it is digital, it must have some sort of format, right, unlike analog signals.
The "live sound" is transmitted by the interface. If the interface is VST, it is most likely "raw" blocks of single channel audio with a single 32-bit floating point value per sample.

An interface is defined by code... sort of like how the interface to your PC is a keyboard and mouse. In order to use the PC (or, the plug-in) the user (or the DAW) must communicate in a specific way.

In VST, this looks like this: (in C)

process_function(float *inputs[channels], float *outputs[channels], int samples)

The datatype is "float" as I explained. The "*" means the datatype is pointed to, in other words each element 0 ... channels contains an address where some float data can be found.

When you type "name[length]", this defines an array. Arrays are defined both by the language and the compiler, although in this case we can safely assume each element appears directly after the last in a solid block.

float buffer[samples];

Once again, just like the array of addresses, each address points to the beginning of an array of samples which we call a "buffer". This is just like the one-after-the-other list of addresses. Each sample is stored sequentially in memory.

So the format is simply a block of memory filled with raw numbers.

Thanks for the explanation, but since I am no programmer I understand little of those things. (I should have stuck with software engineering 30 years ago, but after one year I found it too dry back then

)

But if I understand you right, that float data is the lowest level of the digital representation of the audio, the raw stuff that then gets accessed and processed.

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:52 pm

szalonykp wrote:WAV file 48kHz/16bit - 54,3MB
FLAC compression level 0 - 20,4MB
FLAC compression level 8 - 20MB

and as a bonus:
Apple Lossless - 17,6MB
MP3 320bit VBR - 11MB

Interesting experiment

Have you tried to pack the files further with WinZip or WinRAR, I sometimes find that 320 kbps mp3 files will compress further with such programs

fluffy_little_something · Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:57 pm

Hardly any difference between the FLAC compression levels. Does the file size difference increase a lot as the content increases?

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:04 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:Hardly any difference between the FLAC compression levels. Does the file size difference increase a lot as the content increases?

Yes, I find that a FLAC file usually can be 50-60% compared to the WAV, while a 320 kbps mp3 is about 25%

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:18 pm

Edit: Nevermind.

fluffy_little_something · Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:23 pm

I had used high audio settings, but I still thought I heard a difference. And, the live audio also seems to have more power than the file, it is simply louder.

Numanoid · Post by **Numanoid** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:28 pm

Another good explanaiton here: http://superuser.com/questions/553503/w ... v-and-flac

So, simply put: Take a WAV file with PCM-encoded audio, and the corresponding (mathematically equal) FLAC file will be a tad smaller. The downside is that FLAC is not as widely supported as WAV. For example, most (all?) operating systems won't play or convert FLAC files without extra software.

Bottom line, I'd say their practice is redundant but a nice gesture for folks who don't want to download massive amounts of data and prefer the compressed version.

PALU · Post by **PALU** » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:38 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:Hardly any difference between the FLAC compression levels. Does the file size difference increase a lot as the content increases?

Ok. Here are the numbers with my own track:

WAV 44kHz/16bit - 21,6MB (21,1MB zipped)
FLAC compression level 0 - 16,5MB (16,5MB zipped)
Apple Loseless - 15,8MB (15,8MB zipped)
FLAC compression level 8 - 15,6MB (15,6MB zipped)
MP3 320kbit VBR - 4,9MB (2,2MB zipped)

Quality settings for lossless format?!